Here are the current stats in case someone is curious: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BfRIo0bcKEMzmQnJgF3Q1RmJZYuwcHiZ2MODycVlpg0/edit?usp=sharing
No, you don't, just make the riding skill 10 for horse archer(and increase horse archery to 10) and lancer, remove the infantry and give them access to chargers from an earlier upgrade. for example in the second or third slot.
+1. I have a lot of questions about this. What are the current stats in WBMM?
Atm I can see some reasoning behind 3 changes:
Vaegir Archer -1 power draw (6) - because archers can hold the aim for too long + they do too much dmg.
Nord Cavalry +1 shield skill (2) - because bad protection against rangers and are already squishy because of the armor.
Nord Infantry -2 power throw (2) - because when they get free javs from cav they dominate almost every wbmm match.
I'm not saying I disagree with the rest but can you describe what should be the strenght and weakness of each faction and how does stats represent it currently and after the 'patch'?
-Do you think rangers need a buff in melee by increasing their athletics and power strike? How effectively will you be able to catch ranger with infantry with only 1 point difference?
-Why archers should have less athletics than xbow? Why Sarranid cav has less athletics than other factions?
-It looks, that after the patch nord infantry will be the worst infantry stats wise. What if they lose 1st round and enemy will loot good shields from them and pick up javs? Sarranids have already better axes, each faction has better cav and nord archers aren't that good either.
No, you don't, just make the riding skill 10 for horse archer(and increase horse archery to 10) and lancer, remove the infantry and give them access to chargers from an earlier upgrade. for example in the second or third slot.
No, you don't, just make the riding skill 10 for horse archer(and increase horse archery to 10) and lancer, remove the infantry and give them access to chargers from an earlier upgrade. for example in the second or third slot.
Vaegir Archer -1 power draw (6) - because archers can hold the aim for too long + they do too much dmg.
-Do you think rangers need a buff in melee by increasing their athletics and power strike? How effectively will you be able to catch ranger with infantry with only 1 point difference?
Whether the PD change affects how long Vaegirs can aim for depends on the PD requirement of the bows, which I don't know off the top of my head. It probably won't affect the 3 main bows.
The main change athletics makes isn't top speed (it takes a long time for higher athletics to catch up to someone with lower athletics), it's acceleration. The nerf to archer athletics, whilst it seemed to be designed to make it easier to catch archers, ended up being a nerf to melee since footwork is much slower as an archer, which really just encourages archers to run away more. I think that was the original thinking when Azan made similar stat changes, and seems to be carried over here.
Power draw only affects damage, and whether you can use the bow or not. Vaegir Strong Bow requires 5 power draw, as an example. It's only the 'archery' stat that affects how long it takes to draw, how long it takes until the crosshair gets to the center, and how long you can hold that aim with it being in the center.
Perhaps it's not Vaegir archers needing to accelerate faster and hitting stronger while their shots do less damage; perhaps it's the 6v6 format making archers less viable. If we get a 8v8 tournament in the future, it might shed some more light on whether it's just people playing worse, the format being different (amount of players), the meta just changing or whatever it is.
I'd be very careful regarding stat changes. Ofc there are problems and some changes could make sense. For example I can imagine the Nord infs originally got their throwing skill for their axes and actually weren't supposed to use javs. But all in all the original stats aren't too bad and work pretty well. Other things have higher impact than stats:
Like the current match format.. The shorter round time and forced flag spawn reduced the variety of battle situations and reduced maps to basically 3 flag regions where most fights now take place. These tactical TDM flag fights favour certain skills, stats, play styles and tactics. Most flag positions are flat and they're all in the open. Therefore cav got bigger impact, archers already know their crossfire positions, and the expensive Rhodok spear gets less priority, more closed maps get played which favours Nord inf... and so on.
Equipment has more impact than any stats and new stats won't change any equipment based problems. When the competitive scene uses their own stats they just seperate themselves even more. Stats should always be global and be balanced for all situations which happen on all servers. I think there's a tendency to make the factions more and more equal and to adjust the stats to the flag fights which in my opinion won't make the game more exciting.
...but since I expect some changes will come anyway I took a look at the archer stats:
Power Draw 7:
Nomad Bow: 20+20*(2+4)*0.14 = 20*1.84 = 36.8 (regarding damage 1 Power Draw gets wasted)
Khergit Bow: 21+21*(3+4)*0.14 = 21*1.98 = 41.58 (compared to Nomad Bow: 4.78 more damage, but also 4 speed points slower)
Strong Bow: 23+23*(3+4)*0.14 = 23*1.98 = 45.54 (compared to Khergit Bow: 3.96 more damage, only 2 speed points slower)
War Bow: 25+25*(4+3)*0.14 = 25*1.98 = 49.50 (compared to Strong Bow: 3.96 more damage, but 4 speed points slower, no accuracy penalty since it's exactly 3 above bow requirement)
Power Draw 6:
Nomad Bow: 20+20*(2+4)*0.14 = 20*1.84 = 36.8 (no Power Draw gets wasted since 2+4=6 is the bonus limit anyway)
Khergit Bow: 21+21*(3+3)*0.14 = 21*1.84 = 38.64 (compared to Nomad Bow: 1.84 more damage, which is almost the same damage but the bow is much slower)
Strong Bow: 23+23*(3+3)*0.14 = 23*1.84 = 42.32 (compared to Khergit Bow: 3.68 more damage, but also slower; only 5.52 points stronger than a Nomad Bow)
War Bow: 25+25*(4+2)*0.14 = 25*1.84 = 46 (compared to Strong Bow: 3.68 more damage, accuracy penalty since it's only 2 above bow requirement)
Power Draw 5 (Sarranid):
Nomad Bow: 20+20*(2+3)*0.14 = 20*1.70 = 34 (one less Power Draw bonus than Vaegirs, with 2.80 less damage a tiny bit weaker than Vaegir Nomad Bows)
The Power Draw 7 calculation looks pretty balanced to me. If speedy Nomad Bow or powerful Strong Bow, bonuses and differences make sense.
The Power Draw 6 calculation looks a bit as if the bonus limit got overlooked. The Power Draw bonus (+14% damage) is limited to 4. So with Power Draw 6 only Khergit, Strong and War Bow get nerfed while the Nomad Bow still gets full damage support.
The Khergit Bow only gets 1.84 more damage than Nomad Bow. So there's no reason to use it especially since it's significantly slower too.
Even a Strong Bow is only 5.52 points stronger than a Nomad Bow, but also much slower.
To get completely rid of the accuracy penalty an archer needs 3 more Power Draw than required by the bow. But with Power Draw 6 the Vaegir War Bow is only 2 above bow requirement and gets an accuracy penalty and ofc additionally it's much slower and actually not that much stronger than a Strong Bow. The Vaegir War Bow might not be the most competitive bow anyway, even less since the round time got so short. But on an open map.. well, it should stay an option.
Power Draw 6 might appear as if it fixed the difference of a Sarranid Power Draw 5 Nomad Bow archer to a Vaegir Power Draw 7 Strong Bow archer. But from what I can see it creates inbalance.
Vaegir archers just have more bow power than others and maybe this just gets balanced by their weaker archer melee stats (compared to stronger Sarranid archer melee stats) and by Vaegir infs who have to fear Sarranid foot shots a bit more. With +2 shield skill Vaegir inf gets rid of this weakness too. Actually they just should take cover more often and shouldn't present themselves in the open too much. But maybe that's not possible since they all have to join the flag fight.
Edit: I had to correct the bow requirement values. It seems Strong Bow requires 3 and War Bow only 4 (I thought it was 4 and 5). It's fixed now^^
Well, actually it doesn't make much difference. The damage values are still the same. But the accuracy penalty for the War Bow only appears when it's Power Draw 6. There's no accuracy penalty when it's Power Draw 7.
Power draw only affects damage, and whether you can use the bow or not. Vaegir Strong Bow requires 5 power draw, as an example. It's only the 'archery' stat that affects how long it takes to draw, how long it takes until the crosshair gets to the center, and how long you can hold that aim with it being in the center.
That's not true. I am 100% sure that Power Draw actually does end up affecting both accuracy and how long you can hold a steady shot.
A very easy way of testing this is to just use a war bow as a nord or sarranid archer with 5 PD vs a Vaegir Archer with 7 PD. The Nord and Sarranid archers are very clearly not as accurate with it, and cannot hold their shot as long.
do we really need to prevent footshots? footshots are even harder than headshots with moving targets, it's completely skill and should not be removed by increasing shield skill or with another saying baby**** for those who cant dodge or hold shield
edit: don't know if that requires client or whatever but instead you can increase shield hp for sarranids mby, vaegirs use kite shields as well so again dunno if its possible to do it only for sarranids
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