SP - Battles & Sieges changes that might fix the spear and pike issue

[Rhyuus]

*EDIT: the short conclusion:
-> AI-change: "respect of pikes" no one runs into a wall of pikes, horses and troops slow down / change direction
-> 1 line of pike man: lances straight out, high aiming correction for close targets
-> 2 lines of pike man: 1st row -> lances straight out, 2nd row -> lances in a height were a rider would be, less aiming correction because more area is covered,
-> 3 lines of pike man: ... 3rd row -> lances high, providing a minor protection of arrows
-> running into a pike = damage, running further = more damage / death (damage based on relative velocity + penetration length)
-> a pike wall holds opponents in a distance (because of AI-change "respect of pikes")
-> enemies close to the tip trigger a stabbing action
-> the distance can only be overcome by a longer pike or agility
-> a moving pike wall pushes opponents back + does damage based on relative velocity + penetration length
-> pike man change to a close combat weapon if an enemy gets to close or if they get to close in charge or if it get's too crowded
-> also some pikes/speers should be longer

*... and the original thread/research:

A small bump to the spear and pike issue:

I recently saw a test of Bannerlord spear/pike units in different formations against cavalry and i came across a very realistic battle scene based on a real historical fight “Battle of Rocroi“ which is a great example how pike formations and pike fights should work and how effective they could be. The movie scenes reveal some details for changes that might make the game outcome more realistic. So, here is the comparison:

Quick facts to the Battle of Rocroi:

• Duc d'Enghien, France, 15000 infantry, 7000 cavalry vs Francisco de Melo, Spain, 18000 infantry, 5050 cavalry
• Duc d'Enghien won
• Both sides used pike&shot units as infantry
• one thing to mention: gunpowder was in use here (maybe the units could even do better against arrows)

Quote:

“…, while the Spanish remained on the field with their commander, repulsing four more cavalry charges by the French and never breaking formation, despite repeated heavy artillery bombardment. d'Enghien finally offered surrender conditions … Having agreed to those terms, the remains of the two tercios (Spanish pike and shot units) left the field with deployed flags and weapons.”

[Agustín Pacheco Fernández, Rocroi, el último tercio. Spain: Galland Books, 2011. pp. 15-17] (can also be found on Wikipedia)

=> First the Bannerlord test video:

Spear Units In Tight Formation Is Worse Against Cavalry? - Bannerlord [Formation Comparison]

• the outcome: line and loose formation did best shield and square formation lost
• is it realistic? ... absolutely not, the square formation should have repelled cavalry charges from every side

=> the comparison:

Alatriste: Battle of Rocroi

(can be found on youtube, Uploaded by Gargatul0th, if you’re allowed to play bannerlord you’re probably allowed to watch it, but I don’t want to link it in the forum unless a moderator/admin allows it)

The scene is based on the historical battle and reveals interesting details:

• From 1:30 we see how a pike square formation would deflect a charge (and stopping charges is one of their main jobs!) -> the horses obviously refuse to run into the pikes -> i think this could be an important AI change to make the outcomes more realistic: no one runs into a wall of pikes … this is not a shield wall ... running into a pike = damage
• (… as the quote says: the pike and shot squares repulsed at least 4 cavalry-charges.)
• From 2:30 we see a very realistic pike vs pike fight. -> They slowly push forward trying to get the enemies spears out of their way. If they see the opportunity, they stab, or they run underneath the pikes trying to dagger their opponents and break their formation. -> and there is another detail that could make those troops as effective as they are: in formation they hold their opponents in a distance which can only be overcome by a longer pike or by agility, also they can push them back and if they are charging and come close or it gets too crowded, they switch to a quick close combat weapon.

Maybe those changes make the difference … what do you think?

 

[DD44]

Absolutely on all counts. Pikes and spears are the single biggest problem with this game

 

[TheShermanator]

Some of this I think is indirectly implied by what you’ve outlined above, but:

I think a simple X key enabled secondary use of a long spear or pike should be “brace”. Brace could be the inverse of ‘couch lance’, basically: if the user is not moving (WASD), you could press X to brace. Any enemy that runs, not walks, into a braced spear head would take huge damage proportional to the speed of the running enemy. The formation command to have friendly AI brace could be “phalanx”. And brace / phalanx would require wielding the spear 2 handed (shield put away).

This wouldn’t be a cure-all, but I think it would be a fairly simple way to address a lot of the problems with spears in the game.

 

[DD44]

This this this yes

Probably limited to two handed spears though

 

[TheShermanator]

This this this yes

Probably limited to two handed spears though

Right. Going into phalanx should make the formation vulnerable to javelins and arrows, so shield would have to be put away.