Why isn't the government playing our game and refuses to participate in an illegal referendum? So mean and unfair. We're obviously super-reasonable which is why we're doing this illegal referendum 3 years after we lost another illegal referendum and we will keep doing illegal referendums until the people finally reveal their one true will.
Catalan Independence
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Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
kurczak said:
Woah that was fierce. You did manage to concentrate an amusing number of brain farts in just two lines though.
To begin with I don't deny that what we are doing is illegal, it goes againts the Constitution. But first and foremost know this; when law is not just or fair, one has to disobey it. That of course unless you value Rule of Law above everything in the universe, which seems so in your case. We would love an agreed upon referendum, but to do that we would need to change the Constitution, and that requires parliamentary majorities that are not there and won't seem to be voted anytime soon. Since the situation is stuck and getting worse as we speak and the problem won't solve itself we decided to carry on on our own terms. The Catalan people want to decide, not in 25 or 50 years until the Spanish people have opened their minds enough, they want to decide NOW. And yes, we are reasonable, so reasonable that we asked 18 times for this referendum to Parliament and the PM, even though they use all the tools the State has to hinder our will, and still even now we are open to negotiations. You say who is reasonable here, and who's not now.
Another stupid thing is the "losing an illegal referendum" thing. When was that referendum held? We don't remember, I don't remember. There hasn't been a referendum on separation yet, never. Do not lie, this is a thread for debating and discussing, not for spitting bs. Besides, given that the referendum on the 1st of October is lost all the government has pledged to drop the issue and call for regional elections.
Perhaps you were talking about the 2014 NON BINDING voting that took place? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014) If so please inform yourself, that referendum was not binding, it was a voting arranged by the regional government after several mass demonstrations calling for independance to see the support that option had. And support it had, since the yes recieved a striking 80%. The Spanish government was not able to stop the voting despite their threats, and they are still coping with it. Their shady methods were already showing since the president of the Generalitat (Artur Mas) was, for that, banned of holding any public office. Just for asking the people what they wanted.
I don't care weather you are pro independance or pro unionism, but get your facts right.
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
Ughhhffff...
I wouldn't feel too comfortable, perhaps other Catalans might say otherwise, there's all kinds of people I guess. Personally I don't want their "support" resulting in Russian influence in Catalonia. I also don't see what Russia has to gain from us, we're insignificant to them. I don't feel comfy being buddies with Putin and all he entails...
I wouldn't feel too comfortable, perhaps other Catalans might say otherwise, there's all kinds of people I guess. Personally I don't want their "support" resulting in Russian influence in Catalonia. I also don't see what Russia has to gain from us, we're insignificant to them. I don't feel comfy being buddies with Putin and all he entails...
Catalan people can want whatever they want, that doesn't mean anything. Since you are not oppressed in any way whatsoever, there is no injustice and no unfairness, you have no case for unilateral secession. I applied for optional tax breaks 258 times and was always denied, do I get to secede too?Gasset said:
Yeah, I mean the thing in your link, you know the one where the link says "self determination referendum". Of course it was non-binding, if for no other reason then exactly because it was illegal. Don't try to spin it like it was some casual "you know just checking, no biggie". If you won it, we would never hear the end of it.Gasset said:
But you didn't. You failed to even get more than a half of the people to vote and out of those who could be bothered, some, what, only 80% said yes. Apparently the turnout was so low it wasn't even officially announced, so realistically the secessionists got like 30% of the total population.
And yes, good that there are consequences for openly violating laws of a non-oppressive country. Loss of capacity to hold office is very generous. What you people are doing is borderline treason.
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
If you don't see any unfairness, injustice or opression in all the methods used by the Spanish state againts a peaceful democratic movement then I don't know what to say to you. Perhaps would would understand better the relationship between Catalonia and Spain if you carefully went through the last centuries. Colonial wars, military occupations, cultural assimilation, the several attempts to terminate our political autonomy and cultural uniqueness, etcetera... Problems are solved doing politics, not throwing judges or tanks at people. The right to self-determination of peoples is not only reserved to those under colonial status, but to all nations who wish to decide. According to your logic most seccession referendums/movements wouldn't even be legal...
And I do insist although you don't listen. The voting in 2014 was not binding, not official, and that was expressed repetitively by both the Catalan government and the Spanish government. I am not spinning anything around. In the other side, the upcoming voting is completely different, since it is considered to be binding, which will naturally increase the participation in contrast with the 2014, in which many people weren't arsed to vote since it was a non-official thing and dismissed it as a charade.
And if not loss of office what would you like the central government to do to respond the treason of not only the politicians, but also the hundreds of thousands of volunteers and the millions of demonstrators that gathered in the past years? What is it that you would employ? Something harsher perhaps? The loss of our autonomy or the direct use of force? We have nothing to lose and nothing to fight back with.
And I do insist although you don't listen. The voting in 2014 was not binding, not official, and that was expressed repetitively by both the Catalan government and the Spanish government. I am not spinning anything around. In the other side, the upcoming voting is completely different, since it is considered to be binding, which will naturally increase the participation in contrast with the 2014, in which many people weren't arsed to vote since it was a non-official thing and dismissed it as a charade.
And if not loss of office what would you like the central government to do to respond the treason of not only the politicians, but also the hundreds of thousands of volunteers and the millions of demonstrators that gathered in the past years? What is it that you would employ? Something harsher perhaps? The loss of our autonomy or the direct use of force? We have nothing to lose and nothing to fight back with.
And if you went through more than the last few centuries, you would notice that Catalonia was not always Catalan. For much of its history it was Carthaginian, and Barcelona was an independent realm.
Duh
Duke
I am not commenting on the strategy of the ruling elite, but the notion that the majority of the population has to be brainwashed/narrow-minded to be opposed to a referendum. To me this argument ties into Gassets broader narrative - questioning the constitutional means available to catalans.
You are not really a democratic movement if you do not act within the legal boundaries of a legitimate democracy.
The judiciary is a central pillar of any modern democracy.
I guess I tried to keep it too short: is not just "majority of people against referendum", is about the 1st part of his paragraphDuh said:
Switch "From Madrid" to "from the rest of Spain". As I was saying, there is little to no attempt to actually give a political answer to catalanism.
- "**** you, I do what I want, you are not my real
- "No, you can't, because I say so"
Both stances actually have a lot of support, so call them brainwashed, narrow-minded, propaganda believer, whatever. I just call them dumb
Well, we've seen Russian attempts to subvert EU sanctions and policies by being new best buddies with roguish EU states. But it's true it's more alternate history than a possibility at this point.
I'm against Catalan independence, as there's no sufficient cause - particularly none on cultural grounds. As for the financial rationalization, it's ludicrous (what's a fair share for the national treasury? how is independence going to affect the economy?) and only serves to make the emotional appeal reasonable.
On the other hand, I think independence is inevitable as long as a nationalist right-wing party is in power in Madrid. Both nationalist causes are great for each other in the short term and tend to attract undecided voters shocked by the other side's seemingly unreasonable moves and words. A plague on both your houses!
I'm against Catalan independence, as there's no sufficient cause - particularly none on cultural grounds. As for the financial rationalization, it's ludicrous (what's a fair share for the national treasury? how is independence going to affect the economy?) and only serves to make the emotional appeal reasonable.
On the other hand, I think independence is inevitable as long as a nationalist right-wing party is in power in Madrid. Both nationalist causes are great for each other in the short term and tend to attract undecided voters shocked by the other side's seemingly unreasonable moves and words. A plague on both your houses!
I don't know **** about Catalan case, but being able to leave the social contract is kind of important for democratic legitimacy.
Thank you for your much valued input.
