Catalan Independence
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PrinceNaga
Veteran
When Catalan wants to secede, does that mean taking the Balearic Islands with them? What about Alghero and Northern Catalonia?
I am really curious.
Let's say Catalan secedes somehow from an unhappy Spain, that's great Catalanian's okay. What happens if Valencian's want to secede from Catalan and/or re-join Spain? I looked it up, and they seem to want to stay within Spain.
I am really curious.
Let's say Catalan secedes somehow from an unhappy Spain, that's great Catalanian's okay. What happens if Valencian's want to secede from Catalan and/or re-join Spain? I looked it up, and they seem to want to stay within Spain.
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
PrinceNaga said:
Hold on to your seat buddy, this might take long
At this very moment the Catalan separatist/nationalist movement has as its first and foremost objective the freedom of Catalonia and its establishment as an independent state. The nationalist coalition (and most of the movement) does not have any plans of "taking" any other catalan-speaking region since we don't have the authority to force that on others.
Now, things get complicated. You mentioned a series of territories that are indeed Catalan speaking and share a great deal of history with us. These lands are known in some nationalist circles (in which I participate in) as "Catalan Countries (Països Catalans)". These consist of Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, The Franja (a small strip of Aragon), Roussillon (known as Northern Catalonia, nowadays in France), Andorra, and finally the Italian town of Alghero (in Sardinia). Since this is complex I will make a small summary to explain why these territories are part of these so-called Catalan Countries and what's my stance on it all. Step by step.
Catalonia: Really no need for explanation. Heart and homeland of Catalans and Catalan culture, with all it entails.
Valencia: A very complicated topic. Valencia is the region below Catalonia, and we were together part of the Crown of Aragon. A big part of Valencia is Catalan speaking, this is due to the settlements of Catalan people after the Reconquest of Valencia from the Moors. As time passed this territory evolved its own characteristics and variety of the Catalan language (Valencià/Valencian) and the region thrived and produced many artists, scholars and knights like Joanot Martorell, who wrote one of the most famous medieval books (Tirant lo Blanc). The position of Valencia in the Catalan Countries is a VERY divisive topic, since not only the Catalans resettled Valencia, also Spanish speakers did, and they have a very big presence. During the transition to democracy the Battle of Valencia took place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Valencia) an identity conflict between those who advocated for union with Catalonia/more autonomy for Valencia and a group of anticatalanist extreme right-wing called Blavers, who claimed Valencia had nothing to do with Catalonia and even went as far to claim Valencian was a different language from Catalan although it is recognised by all the philology community that it is a variety, they even invented a diccionary and their own rules. Sort of like how some hardcore nationalist Moldavians claim they don't speak Romanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism). Sadly the latter won the identity battle, which even took victims like Guillem Agulló, murdered by neo-nazis in the streets of Valencia. There is still division between those who have a Catalan/Valencian identity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian_nationalism) and those who fully identify as Spanish.
Balearic Islands: Such as Valencia, it was part of the Crown of Aragon and like it, it was settled by Catalan settlers. Unlike the Valencian territory the Balearic Islands were overwhelmingly populated with Catalan-speaking people. They have no problem whatsoever in saying they speak a variety of Catalan (a dialect which, by the way, sounds VERY sexy) and they have good reltionships with us. They take the ferry to Barcelona often for cheap alcohol and festivals, and it's common for Balearic uni students to study in Barcelona.
The Franja: It's a part of Aragon, a thin strip of land in which Catalan is spoken. To be honest I have no clue why. I also don't know how they feel about us. The Aragonese get REALLY triggered when the Franja is mentioned for some reason. I hope you find more info here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Franja)
Northern Catalonia (known as Roussillon): Roussillon was part of Catalonia until the treaty of the Treaty of the Pyrenees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Pyrenees) signed between Spain and France in November the 7th of 1659 at the end of the Franco-Spanish War. There is still a sizable Catalan speaking population with a strong feeling of nationalism. We cross each other's borders often and they speak a variety of Catalan heavily influenced by French.
Alghero (L'Alguer): Part of the population descends directly from Catalan conquerors of the Middle Ages. Sadly the use of Catalan has fallen A LOT, with only 24,1% using it as a mother tongue.
Andorra: Andorra is an independent nation, the only one with Catalan as its sole official language. We share history, culture, language and proximity. We smuggle there, ski, they come and visit often and our corrupt politicians leave their money in this tax haven. They are like brothers to us.
Now, since you asked about what I think... the Catalan Countries are for me a dream. A reunion of nations and kindred peoples that have different identities, but the same language, culture, shared history, values and ethnicity. I am fully aware that this is hardly possible to achieve since the Catalan Countries are part of several sovereign states, and getting independence for Catalonia alone is already very hard. However I will not cease to campaign for it, for it is what would make me the happiest person on Earth, and it's the cause my family and many other's fought and died for. But never with force, if they want to join us once we are free, let them do so willingly. We know imperialism and the plight of it, and we don't with that on anyone. In case one of them joined, and wanted out of the state, I personally would advocate to let them vote on a referendum, since we (unlike Spain) have learned how denial of the reality of a political situation can harm unity and society. I hope I answered your question, and I apologize for the big amount of information, I tried to summarize things as much as I could, giving facts to check in case some overly sceptical user starts to question everything I say becuase no syringe can get under their skin.
Should anyone have another question (always given that its asked nicely) I will answer then as soon as time allows me to, sorry for the awfully long text wall!
And what if Barcelona wants to assert it's historical independence from Catalonia?
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
Lord Brutus said:
That makes no sense. Barcelona has always been and is the capital of the former Catalan Counties, Principality of Catalonia and later one of the capitals of the Crown of Aragon. Still the industrial and political capital of modern Catalonia. I see no historical independance. It would be like Madrid asserting self-determination on Spain or Helsinki asserting self-determination on Finland. Perhaps the identity situation in Barcelona is slightly different than in the other 3 Catalan provinces due to Barcelona being very diverse (like all the country) and very much cosmopolitan. You also have to bear in mind the two big immigration waves; one in the 50's and 60's by Spanish workers from impoverished rural regions in the south, and the second one by immigrants from the Third World these past 10 years. The first one caused a significant dilution in the pretty much pre-war heterogeneous society, and decades after that immigration wave, many first and second generation immigrants still haven't still fully integrated, not knowing the language or the costums. Many others, in the other hand, have, mainly becuase of our schooling system, and some others due to personal interest.
I apologize for the late response, I did not notice it
An update. Catalan National Day was two days ago (I know it's 9/11, we celebrated this decades ago before the attack, it's an unfortunate coincidence, not an inside job
). One million Catalans (as estimated by the Barcelona urban police and the international media) demonstrated in the streets of Barcelona. Calling for independance and the right to express their will democratically. It was a peaceful protest with no accidents whatsoever. The Spanish central government though puts their numbers of demonstrators at 350.000 (which shows that they are very nervous or, in the in the worst case scenario, have a severe problem with maths). Tensions between the Spanish government and the Catalan regional government (The Generalitat) are mounting. And the latter decided days ago that it's time to cross the Rubicon. The Generalitat has passed two very important laws; the Referendum Bill (which describes how the referendum in the 1st of October will be held; its mechanisms of control, effectiveness, international monitoring and democratic guarantees) and the Legal Transitoriness Law (which, in the case of a "yes" victory in the upcoming referendum and the future declaration of independance) shall be the supreme law until the new constitution is drafted. The Spanish government has gone bonkers in a massive trigger. Retaliated so far by immediately shutting down the two bills on them being unconstitutional. The Catalan government is so far disobeying the Constitutional Court. The attorney general of the state is threatening all the mayors who support the referendum with arrest should they not withdraw their support. TV3 (the Catalan regional TV station) has been told by the central government not to inform about the referendum and not to use institutional videos calling for participation. All police forces in Catalonia have been ordered to take all propaganda and ballot boxes they see, so far the Guardia Civil (military gendarmerie) have raided a newspaper and a print shop, they didn't find anything except locals laughing at them. The institutional duel keeps escalating, we'll see how it ends.
As always, some sources and interesting info!
On the National Day (by Reuters and the Guardian, you can find plenty more in many other papers)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/catalonia-barcelona-independence-national-day-diada
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia/around-one-million-rally-for-catalan-independence-from-spain-idUSKCN1BL0EA?il=0
On the Generalitat's two historic bills
http://www.ara.cat/en/Referendum-and-disconnection-separate-laws_0_1820218202.html
On the print shop and newspaper raid
http://www.ara.cat/en/Spanish-gendarmes-of-Catalan-referendum_0_1866413566.html
http://www.ara.cat/en/Spains-Guardia-Civil-of-independence_0_1865213671.html
Some pictures from the 2017 National Day
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
crodeau said:
Yes
! Les rambles is just next to Plaça Catalunya (Catalonia Square), which is the biggest square in the city and pretty much the center of it. Les rambles (las ramblas in Spanish) is the trendiest street, known for expensive shopping and sadly the place of our latest terrorist attack...If you ever think about visiting, do visit Catalonia Square and the Rambles. Be advised though, it's quite expensive to shop there. Tourist trap.
If you have ever played Crusader Kings, you would know that Barcelona was not always capitol of anything, let alone Catalonia. It was an independent municipality for most of its history. Your example of Helsinki is also a poor one. Helsinki became capitol of Finland only by vote after Finnish independence was attained. Many areas of Finland still maintain a culture separate from the culture of Helsinki. Many Finns feel a greater affinity to their home region than to Helsinki.
Of course I'm correct but thank you for noticing. His point seemed to be that because Barcelona was capitol of Catalonia at one isolated point in history, it should be projected backward and forward to say Barcelona is always capitol of Catalonia. Picking numerous other isolated points in history and projecting them forward would not produce the same results. Picking isolated points in Finland's history and projecting them forward would find Finland lacking any capitol at all, although Helsinki would most definitely be part of Finland.
Edit: And, no offense, Jhess, but that avatar does not become you. If you will allow me, I could suggest perhaps a modification for the size requirements of this. Plus it's animated.
His point seemed to be that because Barcelona was capitol of Catalonia at one isolated point in history, it should be projected backward and forward to say Barcelona is always capitol of Catalonia. Picking numerous other isolated points in history and projecting them forward would not produce the same results. Picking isolated points in Finland's history and projecting them forward would find Finland lacking any capitol at all, although Helsinki would most definitely be part of Finland.Edit: And, no offense, Jhess, but that avatar does not become you. If you will allow me, I could suggest perhaps a modification for the size requirements of this. Plus it's animated.
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
Barcelona wasn't the capitol of Barcelona at some "isolated points", it has almost always (if not always) been consistently our capitol. Not on the defensive at all, I hope I answered your question.
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Update: Madrid continues its offensive to stop the voting in October the 1st by all means at all costs. In 48 hours, the Spanish government will take over control of Catalonia’s finances in order to “guarantee that no euros are spent on illegal activities,” according to the Spanish treasury minister, Cristobal Montoro. He called the measure a “control of expenses,” but he did not deny that it can be considered an actual intervention in Catalonia’s finances. Montoro said that the Spanish government will replace the Catalan one when it comes to paying basic public services and public servants’ salaries. The measure will be enforced in 2 days, if by then Carles Puigdemont’s cabinet hasn’t backed down from its challenge against Spain. Basically the autonomy we have left is to be suspended soon, but never officially, that would arouse anger.
Also, 712 of Catalonia's mayors have been called to court to declare on the charges of disobedience and misuse of public funds. That is around 75% of all the mayors of Catalonia.
More pro-independence media agencies and sites (El Nacional, Punt Avui and Vilaweb) are receiving warnings by police, or are straight up registered without notice, and the Guardia Civil (Gendarmerie) has been congratulated by Spain's PM Mariano Rajoy for already taking down 100.000 propaganda posters. Pro "yes" meetings are being suspended as "illegal" although they are celebrated anyways.
Despite all this Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has assured a crowd of demonstrators standing next to the 712 mayors that the ballot boxes will be there, and the voting will be held. Only time will tell. The situation is escalating and only days remain until the 1st of October is here. People losing their sh** in Madrid. Hard to tell how drastic the next measures will be, considering that reprisals and repression is only getting worse by the standarts of a western democratic european state. Even if the voting itself is stopped, how will they explain the registered mail, the prohibition of meetings, announcements, posters, the use of justice for political gains and the erosion of the state's separation of powers that entails, the cited mayors, etcetera...
Even if they DO stop the 1st of October, it doesn't change the fact that a large segment of Catalan society feels nothing but spite and anger towards the central government, in fact, the situation might get worse unless the voting is permitted or dialogue is started, which seems unlikely since one side is determined to treat this as a judicial problem instead of a political one.
Some articles by POLITICO Europe;
http://www.politico.eu/article/jean-claude-juncker-catalonia-headscarf-i-would-respect-a-catalan-yes-vote/
http://www.politico.eu/article/madrid-to-take-control-of-catalonias-finances/
http://www.politico.eu/article/spanish-postal-service-warns-staff-not-to-handle-catalan-referendum-material/
----------------
Update: Madrid continues its offensive to stop the voting in October the 1st by all means at all costs. In 48 hours, the Spanish government will take over control of Catalonia’s finances in order to “guarantee that no euros are spent on illegal activities,” according to the Spanish treasury minister, Cristobal Montoro. He called the measure a “control of expenses,” but he did not deny that it can be considered an actual intervention in Catalonia’s finances. Montoro said that the Spanish government will replace the Catalan one when it comes to paying basic public services and public servants’ salaries. The measure will be enforced in 2 days, if by then Carles Puigdemont’s cabinet hasn’t backed down from its challenge against Spain. Basically the autonomy we have left is to be suspended soon, but never officially, that would arouse anger.
Also, 712 of Catalonia's mayors have been called to court to declare on the charges of disobedience and misuse of public funds. That is around 75% of all the mayors of Catalonia.
More pro-independence media agencies and sites (El Nacional, Punt Avui and Vilaweb) are receiving warnings by police, or are straight up registered without notice, and the Guardia Civil (Gendarmerie) has been congratulated by Spain's PM Mariano Rajoy for already taking down 100.000 propaganda posters. Pro "yes" meetings are being suspended as "illegal" although they are celebrated anyways.
Despite all this Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has assured a crowd of demonstrators standing next to the 712 mayors that the ballot boxes will be there, and the voting will be held. Only time will tell. The situation is escalating and only days remain until the 1st of October is here. People losing their sh** in Madrid. Hard to tell how drastic the next measures will be, considering that reprisals and repression is only getting worse by the standarts of a western democratic european state. Even if the voting itself is stopped, how will they explain the registered mail, the prohibition of meetings, announcements, posters, the use of justice for political gains and the erosion of the state's separation of powers that entails, the cited mayors, etcetera...
Even if they DO stop the 1st of October, it doesn't change the fact that a large segment of Catalan society feels nothing but spite and anger towards the central government, in fact, the situation might get worse unless the voting is permitted or dialogue is started, which seems unlikely since one side is determined to treat this as a judicial problem instead of a political one.
Some articles by POLITICO Europe;
http://www.politico.eu/article/jean-claude-juncker-catalonia-headscarf-i-would-respect-a-catalan-yes-vote/
http://www.politico.eu/article/madrid-to-take-control-of-catalonias-finances/
http://www.politico.eu/article/spanish-postal-service-warns-staff-not-to-handle-catalan-referendum-material/
Well, you still fail to understand but best of luck to you anyway.
https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/908377159781232641 You really can't expect someone from the EU to take sides.Gasset said:
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
Sad but true buddy
No one will really explicitly support an independance movement. That's risky and a bad move. It doesn't matter which government official you ask the normal response you'll get is "those are internal affairs", and the statement may vary depending on the relationship between states, some may be more zealous than others. Expressing support will always anger the state that movement is in, and it's useless supporting the creation of a State that doesn't even exist yet. Recognision and support usually comes AFTER the declaration. For instance no one questioned the national sovereignty of Yugloslavia before the breaking up started, recognisions and support came afterwards. Same can be applied with most separatist movements. Divorces are rarely friendly and agreed upon.
No one will really explicitly support an independance movement. That's risky and a bad move. It doesn't matter which government official you ask the normal response you'll get is "those are internal affairs", and the statement may vary depending on the relationship between states, some may be more zealous than others. Expressing support will always anger the state that movement is in, and it's useless supporting the creation of a State that doesn't even exist yet. Recognision and support usually comes AFTER the declaration. For instance no one questioned the national sovereignty of Yugloslavia before the breaking up started, recognisions and support came afterwards. Same can be applied with most separatist movements. Divorces are rarely friendly and agreed upon.
Breaking up is easy.
I hope the Spanish government will learn from Cameron's campaign against Scottish independence, and go to Catalonia to present a positive case for staying, instead of escalating the conflict from Madrid. I fear they are not wise enough to do the right thing.
I hope the Spanish government will learn from Cameron's campaign against Scottish independence, and go to Catalonia to present a positive case for staying, instead of escalating the conflict from Madrid. I fear they are not wise enough to do the right thing.
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
Rodrigo Ribaldo said:
Pretty much it's what they are doing. They call on the unionists to abstain in the referendum, which makes things easier for the pro-independance population. Even though the Generalitat has asked 18 times for an agreed upon referendum they denied time after time. And they haven't only denied, they haven't presented any alternative whatsoever. If they agreed on a Scotland styled referendum and campaigned for no, presenting alternatives to the Catalan Republic who knows, they might win. But they aren't wise enough I guess.
From Madrid the Catalan issue is seen as 4 politicians stirring up trouble for their own gains, and, as I said, it's treated as a judicial problem, not a social one. They ignore the big chunck of the population that are largely activists and pro independance, and the even larger chunck of the population (around 80%) who, regardless of their views, want to decide their future. Not only the politicians are THAT narrow minded, but most of the population is. The media feeds them with a distorted reality that does not correspond at all with Catalan society (for instance it is often said that we are doing a coup againts democracy, that we are antieuropean, supremacists, banning spanish from schools and businesses etc). It might be too late for the ruling elites in Madrid to open their eyes and solve the biggest constitutional challenge Spain has had since the Tejero failed coup.
Gasset
Sergeant at Arms
I don't expect them to support it at all, I wouldn't if I was them. If you read my previous post you'll see that I complained about the distorted vision offered from outside Catalonia about the events happening here, and how that shapes their perception of us from normal people to child-eating neo-nazi barbarians. I don't expect them to support their richest region breaking out, that's nonsense, but I'd love to see them realise what's happening here and support the right to decide since keeping your neighbours by all means necessary even if it implies shady methods like the ones that are being used as we speak and expecting to have a say in a homeland that isn't yours is simply not decent.
Nah, he's still (partially) right. The best result in Catalonia for the current political party ruling Spain was 13%. With so little to gain there, they prefer to stir some good old "us vs. them" to gain more support in the rest of the country (and since that works, so do the Catalan nationalists). The idea of campaigning for a "vote no, we are better together" is simply not even considered. Any attempt to de-escalate the situation is labeled as weakness or treasonous/unpatriotic.Duh said:The majority does not support our minority demands, which will benefit them in no way whatsoever. They must be brainwashed and/or narrow-minded.
