Can't wait for a better matching system

[MArdA TaleWorlds]

The matchmaker system tries to match 6 player parties with 6 player parties as a priority when searching for matches. But if there is not any players that fill the criteria the matchmaker will fill the other team with non-party players. This is also the case for Skirmish.
We will introduce Clan System to the game soon to make sure clans can play against clans and etc.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

We will introduce Clan System to the game soon to make sure clans can play against clans and etc.

This is awesome news and an absolute godsend for tournaments.

Unfortunately until more people are playing an MMR system really will not do much. If there are only 12 people queuing and 6 of them are playing together there is absolutely nothing it can do. This sounds like a cherry pick scenario but it is unfortunately pretty common with the current player numbers. As the game improves and more people hopefully come back its usefulness will increase.

 

[azakhi]

This is awesome news and an absolute godsend for tournaments.

Unfortunately until more people are playing an MMR system really will not do much. If there are only 12 people queuing and 6 of them are playing together there is absolutely nothing it can do. This sounds like a cherry pick scenario but it is unfortunately pretty common with the current player numbers. As the game improves and more people hopefully come back its usefulness will increase.

I was thinking of ways to deal with that problem for some time now. Ideally it needs to satisfy 3 things:
- Matching people with similar skills
- Matching people fast
- Matching different people so they don't play with same people all the time

First two is more important than the third one I would think so I will put that one aside for a moment.

For simplicity, lets assume people have uniformly distributed MMR between 500-2500 (assuming everybody starts with 1500 and it spread 1k to each side) and Skirmish games last 20 minutes in average.

If we wanted to keep matches between 100 MMR range, that is 5% of players.
If we wanted to keep people waiting at most 2 minutes, that is 9% players (2/22) on queue, rest in game.

So satisfying these two conditions require at least 2640 online ranked Skirmish players. (12 * 20 * 22/2)

Now consider third condition. Assuming keeping 3 times more players for a skirmish game in queue allows a variety of players, we would need 7920 online ranked Skirmish players.
Then comes parties. If we wanted to separate all 3+ player parties from the rest and assume that they are evenly distributed, we would need 7920 online players for each, making total 15840.

So my conclusion would be, regardless of this number being achievable or not, there will be times we would need to adjust the above 3 conditions to satisfy each in an acceptable way. Which means that there will be times matchmaking taking longer than 2 minutes although waiting players seem more than enough, there will be times you are put in a game not so well balanced or a game with mostly same players you have played.

TLDR; Matchmaking will have its unavoidable issues until player base grows enough.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

snip

One thing an MMR system can definitely do is make sure that even with smaller numbers the good players are evenly distributed. Lets say that there are 12 players queuing. If 2 of them are elite and the rest are average you can still have a balanced match by making sure the elite players are separated. When my team RCC has a group of players on, we have started splitting into 2 queues of 3 rather than 1 queue of 6. That way have a chance of fighting each other and having a balanced match rather than just pubstomping. Even with low numbers, an MMR system will help to make sure than the 2 stacks go against each other rather than landing on the same team anyway.

It wont be helping as much as it should but anything is better than nothing.

 

[GEO_MihaWk.]

I was thinking of ways to deal with that problem for some time now. Ideally it needs to satisfy 3 things:
- Matching people with similar skills
- Matching people fast
- Matching different people so they don't play with same people all the time

First two is more important than the third one I would think so I will put that one aside for a moment.

For simplicity, lets assume people have uniformly distributed MMR between 500-2500 (assuming everybody starts with 1500 and it spread 1k to each side) and Skirmish games last 20 minutes in average.

If we wanted to keep matches between 100 MMR range, that is 5% of players.
If we wanted to keep people waiting at most 2 minutes, that is 9% players (2/22) on queue, rest in game.

So satisfying these two conditions require at least 2640 online ranked Skirmish players. (12 * 20 * 22/2)

Now consider third condition. Assuming keeping 3 times more players for a skirmish game in queue allows a variety of players, we would need 7920 online ranked Skirmish players.
Then comes parties. If we wanted to separate all 3+ player parties from the rest and assume that they are evenly distributed, we would need 7920 online players for each, making total 15840.

So my conclusion would be, regardless of this number being achievable or not, there will be times we would need to adjust the above 3 conditions to satisfy each in an acceptable way. Which means that there will be times matchmaking taking longer than 2 minutes although waiting players seem more than enough, there will be times you are put in a game not so well balanced or a game with mostly same players you have played.

TLDR; Matchmaking will have its unavoidable issues until player base grows enough.

Thank you for the update but you guys have Been talking about this for past month, and all we hear is soon soon soon but we can't even get a time frame for anything. Thank you

 

[๖Kern]

One thing an MMR system can definitely do is make sure that even with smaller numbers the good players are evenly distributed. Lets say that there are 12 players queuing. If 2 of them are elite and the rest are average you can still have a balanced match by making sure the elite players are separated. When my team RCC has a group of players on, we have started splitting into 2 queues of 3 rather than 1 queue of 6. That way have a chance of fighting each other and having a balanced match rather than just pubstomping. Even with low numbers, an MMR system will help to make sure than the 2 stacks go against each other rather than landing on the same team anyway.

It wont be helping as much as it should but anything is better than nothing.

While this is the only way to make MM work in Bannerlord currently, it is a very bad “fix”. It’s the basic even-MMR-distribution system which would work fine if players were of a similar level. Since that won’t be the case, it will be very unsatisfying and experience breaking when there are large MMR gaps between the players - and that’s basically a sure thing with a small playerbase. This has been a problem in WBMM and the main reason why it was switched for captain picking. While it does fulfill the premise of even MMR distribution, the experience will still be bad. I’d rather wait 6 minutes instead of 2 to get into a game full of people on my level than play a game where 2 people in my team have 6000MMR and rest 1000MMR against the enemy team which has people with ~2.5k MMR each. That’s balanced on paper but in reality, it won’t be balanced.

 

[azakhi]

One thing an MMR system can definitely do is make sure that even with smaller numbers the good players are evenly distributed. Lets say that there are 12 players queuing. If 2 of them are elite and the rest are average you can still have a balanced match by making sure the elite players are separated. When my team RCC has a group of players on, we have started splitting into 2 queues of 3 rather than 1 queue of 6. That way have a chance of fighting each other and having a balanced match rather than just pubstomping. Even with low numbers, an MMR system will help to make sure than the 2 stacks go against each other rather than landing on the same team anyway.

It wont be helping as much as it should but anything is better than nothing.

Here is a sneak peek from next Beta patch:

Matchmaker now balances teams after arranging a match.

Thank you for the update but you guys have Been talking about this for past month, and all we hear is soon soon soon but we can't even get a time frame for anything. Thank you

Well because it is not something actively worked on. We have implemented a working system and tested it. Quite some time ago actually. Now it is waiting for that "okay adjust this numbers and enable it on Live servers" moment. I don't know why exactly it is being kept disabled but I would guess because other relevant parts are not complete yet. Like there is no rejoin system or casual/ranked separation or a better solution to 6v6 matches instead of separate pools (which can be abused if desired).
Some of these are, however, being worked on actively. Like 6v6 system.

 

[Mabons]

A perfectly balanced matchmaking system will literally never be achievable, look at League of Legends and other MOBAs that have been around for years, they still have issues with this sort of thing constantly.

Also just wait till a meta builds around factions and it requires like 2 archers or something yet everyone is an infantry or cavalry player, it'll get even worse.

EDIT: This isn't a slight on Taleworlds, it's more an attempt to cool people's expectations, something is better than nothing at this point.

 

[Namakan]

Here is a sneak peek from next Beta patch:

Matchmaker now balances teams after arranging a match.

That's great news but I have what is probably a dumb question, but just to be sure: This does not mean stacks are split up, does it? Because that would probably kill any way to play matches.

 

[๖Kern]

That's great news but I have what is probably a dumb question, but just to be sure: This does not mean stacks are split up, does it? Because that would probably kill any way to play matches.

I think the clan system should be deployed too? Dunno.

 

[Ikea Knight]

I am more curious what impact a ranked system will have on tournaments and leagues

 

[Zoonanay]

That's great news but I have what is probably a dumb question, but just to be sure: This does not mean stacks are split up, does it? Because that would probably kill any way to play matches.

Maybe this is why the MM system is still waiting on going live, until the clan system and other related systems to match making are complete there are unintentional side effects to implementing match balancing and SBMM. Would make sense to not disrupt what community is left around pre-made stack lobbies.

 

[Yukmouth++]

I was thinking of ways to deal with that problem for some time now. Ideally it needs to satisfy 3 things:
- Matching people with similar skills
- Matching people fast
- Matching different people so they don't play with same people all the time

First two is more important than the third one I would think so I will put that one aside for a moment.

For simplicity, lets assume people have uniformly distributed MMR between 500-2500 (assuming everybody starts with 1500 and it spread 1k to each side) and Skirmish games last 20 minutes in average.

If we wanted to keep matches between 100 MMR range, that is 5% of players.
If we wanted to keep people waiting at most 2 minutes, that is 9% players (2/22) on queue, rest in game.

So satisfying these two conditions require at least 2640 online ranked Skirmish players. (12 * 20 * 22/2)

Now consider third condition. Assuming keeping 3 times more players for a skirmish game in queue allows a variety of players, we would need 7920 online ranked Skirmish players.
Then comes parties. If we wanted to separate all 3+ player parties from the rest and assume that they are evenly distributed, we would need 7920 online players for each, making total 15840.

So my conclusion would be, regardless of this number being achievable or not, there will be times we would need to adjust the above 3 conditions to satisfy each in an acceptable way. Which means that there will be times matchmaking taking longer than 2 minutes although waiting players seem more than enough, there will be times you are put in a game not so well balanced or a game with mostly same players you have played.

TLDR; Matchmaking will have its unavoidable issues until player base grows enough.

IT also needs to match similar groups of people. Say you have a party of 4 with a party of 2 (4-2), it needs to be matched against something equivalent. (4-2, 3-3, 2-2-2), definitively not 1-1-1-1-1-1

 

[AxiosXiphos]

IT also needs to match similar groups of people. Say you have a party of 4 with a party of 2 (4-2), it needs to be matched against something equivalent. (4-2, 3-3, 2-2-2), definitively not 1-1-1-1-1-1

Absolutely agreed. I match make alone and my experiences are either having a good game because it's small groups or losing/winning before the game really starts because my team or the opposing team is a 4-5 stack. You can't compete with that alone and fighting 1v2+ in Banner lord is difficult as long as the enemy are competent and work together.

A good team with good coordination will easily trash a team of equally good players with no or little coordination.

 

[The Real Handy]

I still think skirmish should have 2 separate modes to que for. 6v6 competitive mode where it allows friends to que together and a 12v12 non competitive mode that only allows for solo ques giving a better chance at balanced teams. Or battle mode would be nice.

 

[Yukmouth++]

I still think skirmish should have 2 separate modes to que for. 6v6 competitive mode where it allows friends to que together and a 12v12 non competitive mode that only allows for solo ques giving a better chance at balanced teams. Or battle mode would be nice.

100% solo queue would be great for sure, but it would need to prevent people from grouping up by queueing simultaneously

 

[azakhi]

That's great news but I have what is probably a dumb question, but just to be sure: This does not mean stacks are split up, does it? Because that would probably kill any way to play matches.

Parties won't be split up in any way.

 

[Brandis.]

Thanks for the insight into this. This undoubtedly moves the game in a better direction.

As a temporary solution to the 'stack problem', I would suggest setting a Solo MMR and a Party MMR. Otherwise, I won't be able to play as a solo player knowing that I'm tanking my MMR. I'll exclusively want to play in a full stack, which will in turn make the solo experience even worse for anyone who isn't in a stack.

 

[TheBard]

I still think skirmish should have 2 separate modes to que for. 6v6 competitive mode where it allows friends to que together and a 12v12 non competitive mode that only allows for solo ques giving a better chance at balanced teams. Or battle mode would be nice.

Battle with the current system would be having the same if not way more issues. I'd like to have something like Battle back, sure, but with the current class system and/or the matchmaking issues the game mode will be deserted within a few days.

 

[Lord Bryggan]

I think a Voip system would help a lot. I'm a single player, and I try to do well, but I have made mistakes in guessing what the rest of the team is doing.

Not all bad players are trolls. Lots of us just don't have the experience to know what to do, and would love a little leadership. But it's hard enough to read commands while playing, let alone type them.