Simply, when you start out at the game bows are way too inaccurate. When you start out, all the way until you have 10PD and 350+ proficiency, you're incapable of hitting a man sized target at medium/close range, it's just not an acceptable standard of marksmanship that you would expect of a competent archer. I understand that this mod is more of a traditional RPG that puts more emphasis on stats and equipment rather than skill, (and this is reflected by giving bows lower accuracy but buffing them in other areas so you just have to essentially spam them in the direction of the enemy for sustain dps), but I think it goes a bit far, especially at the beginning. All of the starting bows should get much better accuracy but a bit less damage/speed/velocity, and this should happen with the higher tier bows except not as much.
Bows are too innacurate
- Thread starter wyrda78
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Use a crossbow instead of complaining. Or try to shoot a bow in real life and to see how accurate the untrained and trained boywer is.
Shooting a bow straight and true needs a considerable amount of dedication and the right weapon to use. You can easily start with sufficient bow proficiency from the starting options to hit things on a regular basis with one of the weaker bows.
I highly advise you look up the various guides, especially the one about archery, before you complain about something that offends you.
Or use something like Morghs Editor to change it to your fancy.
Shooting a bow straight and true needs a considerable amount of dedication and the right weapon to use. You can easily start with sufficient bow proficiency from the starting options to hit things on a regular basis with one of the weaker bows.
I highly advise you look up the various guides, especially the one about archery, before you complain about something that offends you.
Or use something like Morghs Editor to change it to your fancy.
DarkDiamond
Veteran
Well, if you prefer being a sniper from a game start it your individual preference and can be achieved by small modding / cheating.
Gameplay-wise 300-400 proficiency *is* the level of competent archer that is able to hit targets consistently.
And even in historical sense, a trained archer was only expected to be able to land his shots within approx 5m area from a target at ranges beyond point-blank. Being able to hit a specific spot, especially a moving target, at even 40 yards took dozen of years of practice, not something you expect from a lvl 1 adventurer.
Gameplay-wise 300-400 proficiency *is* the level of competent archer that is able to hit targets consistently.
And even in historical sense, a trained archer was only expected to be able to land his shots within approx 5m area from a target at ranges beyond point-blank. Being able to hit a specific spot, especially a moving target, at even 40 yards took dozen of years of practice, not something you expect from a lvl 1 adventurer.
If you ask me, cheap bows are too weak, good bows are too strong.
If you compare, that a Fierdsvain light infantry can still do some damage to a knight, a skirmisher's arrows are close to worthless.
Contrary, never mind Noldor hyper-accuracy, practically everyone with a noldor composite bow is on another league compared to others. e.g. Seer Favorites have significantly worse stats than R_Rangers or S_Armored Longbowmen, but fight on par, simply because of the noldor composite bow.
In fact, I believe they deal about the same dmg, but are still more accurate and shoot faster than the others.
Same reason why the P_Armored Bowman with composite short bows are weaker than the above, although stat-wise they shouldn't be.
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Be honest, people...when you're charging in on your charger wearing plate, you're ignoring low-tier archers, while aiming for man-at-arms or infantry.
If you compare, that a Fierdsvain light infantry can still do some damage to a knight, a skirmisher's arrows are close to worthless.
Contrary, never mind Noldor hyper-accuracy, practically everyone with a noldor composite bow is on another league compared to others. e.g. Seer Favorites have significantly worse stats than R_Rangers or S_Armored Longbowmen, but fight on par, simply because of the noldor composite bow.
In fact, I believe they deal about the same dmg, but are still more accurate and shoot faster than the others.
Same reason why the P_Armored Bowman with composite short bows are weaker than the above, although stat-wise they shouldn't be.
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Be honest, people...when you're charging in on your charger wearing plate, you're ignoring low-tier archers, while aiming for man-at-arms or infantry.
Well, maybe the noldor bow was a bad example. Though if they ARE magic, then I wonder why half of Pendor's heretics, omen seekers, rogue knights run around with them (plain quality as well!), while it takes the player a year to get his hands on one.RC-1136 said:As it should be.
And it's realistic as well.
A knight is and should be like a tank. A tank would first and foremost go for enemy tanks.
After that the fantasy element comes into play: A Noldor bow is supposed to be super accurate and deadly. Because: It's magic.
What I meant though is the difference between the usefulness of e.g. light infantry vs skirmisher against a knight, and man-at-arms vs longbowman.
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If we talk about realism, then we have half of Pendor running around in full plate, which was impenetrable by arrows, and even a lance's penetration.
Technically, 1h-sword swings couldn't do a scratch on full plate.
Neither do I think it realistic, if you plant a head-shot with a short bow, and it deals 0-10 dmg.
And what is the explanation for the high str req for noldor stuff? They're superlight, magic...and need str 30 to wear?
Plate is vulnerable to both, zykox. If the bow draws enough weight and shoots proper war arrows with sufficiently hardened arrow tips, it will pierce through your plate at lower ranges.
But as most people used to wore something underneath, a gambeson or at some critical places another layer of mail - the piercing damage done to the person behind will be little to none compared to the force of impact and the resulting blunt trauma.
If you´re not considering it realistic that a weaker bow, like the short bow, should cause less damage than a stronger bow befriend physics.
Technically, 1h swords didn´t do a scratch on armoured foes, which is the reason they where used in quite inventive ways, grappling, hooking, bashing, thrusting and slashing the less fortunate and armoured opposition. Once you get more armour around you get more polearms on your battlefields. Clubs, maces, morningstars, huge big 2h axes, swords, polehammers and pikes become more common and counter all the canned meat. Not to mention all the other nasty little devices, like certain daggers formed to break mail and be pushed through the joints of armour.
So light infantry or weak skirmishers is and was and will most likely always be hopeless against heavily armoured troopers. Just like it should be. The only thing your basic GI Joe can do if he encounters a main battle tank is waving his assault rifle and salute one last time.
Just to use a more modern concept.
The explanation for the high strenght requirements regarding noldor stuff is pretty simple:
First of all, it´s there to avoid the PC abusing Lethaldiran as fashion slave.
Secondly, it´s there to give the player a nice and happy feeling once he´s able to equip some goodies. He´s awarded for something and will appreciate it.
Thirdly, it´s high end gear. Top of the line stuff. So it shouldn´t be available from the very beginning. This means, you have to spend some time to get it by which you´re prolly mid to late game, when personal equipment does not impact the game anymore as dramatically as it would on lower PC levels.
So it seemed quite reasonable to set it to 30. Which is something most archers will achieve non-chalantly and since a large portion of players enjoys playing archers or horsearchers it suits them well.
Me personally never used Noldor gear that much. It´s too ugly and I´m usually stuck with the heraldic mail with tabard, which is one of the best armours around. Rarely I upgrade it to Heraldic Plate or - if I get it - the Royal Plate Mail, the blue one with the yellow facings. It usually depends wether or not I can acquire a Noldor Captain Helmet.
But as most people used to wore something underneath, a gambeson or at some critical places another layer of mail - the piercing damage done to the person behind will be little to none compared to the force of impact and the resulting blunt trauma.
If you´re not considering it realistic that a weaker bow, like the short bow, should cause less damage than a stronger bow befriend physics.
Technically, 1h swords didn´t do a scratch on armoured foes, which is the reason they where used in quite inventive ways, grappling, hooking, bashing, thrusting and slashing the less fortunate and armoured opposition. Once you get more armour around you get more polearms on your battlefields. Clubs, maces, morningstars, huge big 2h axes, swords, polehammers and pikes become more common and counter all the canned meat. Not to mention all the other nasty little devices, like certain daggers formed to break mail and be pushed through the joints of armour.
So light infantry or weak skirmishers is and was and will most likely always be hopeless against heavily armoured troopers. Just like it should be. The only thing your basic GI Joe can do if he encounters a main battle tank is waving his assault rifle and salute one last time.
Just to use a more modern concept.
The explanation for the high strenght requirements regarding noldor stuff is pretty simple:
First of all, it´s there to avoid the PC abusing Lethaldiran as fashion slave.
Secondly, it´s there to give the player a nice and happy feeling once he´s able to equip some goodies. He´s awarded for something and will appreciate it.
Thirdly, it´s high end gear. Top of the line stuff. So it shouldn´t be available from the very beginning. This means, you have to spend some time to get it by which you´re prolly mid to late game, when personal equipment does not impact the game anymore as dramatically as it would on lower PC levels.
So it seemed quite reasonable to set it to 30. Which is something most archers will achieve non-chalantly and since a large portion of players enjoys playing archers or horsearchers it suits them well.
Me personally never used Noldor gear that much. It´s too ugly and I´m usually stuck with the heraldic mail with tabard, which is one of the best armours around. Rarely I upgrade it to Heraldic Plate or - if I get it - the Royal Plate Mail, the blue one with the yellow facings. It usually depends wether or not I can acquire a Noldor Captain Helmet.
According to a docu video I saw on youtube, full plate worn by Italian or German knights in the 100years war between England and France, was impenetrable even by the famed English longbowmen.noosers said:
In any case, gambeson was always worn underneath, so it is as you said, that the wearers could still suffer blunt trauma, though less from arrows than from melee wpns.
What? No, that's not what I meant...I meant that it takes weaker bows 3 shots to kill a naked looter. And someone wearing fur or leather can easily take 6 or more shots in PoP, which I think is just bonkers.noosers said:
noosers said:
You misunderstood this one...I have a problem with weak skirmishers, because the opposite of what you said is true: Light infantry CAN pose a danger to armored troops, while bow skirmishers are useless.
So either make low-tier infantry similarly weak, or give low-tier archers a boost. And I vote for the latter.
Of course I understand the design concept. I just meant "realistically", there is no explanation why very light Noldor armor needs STR 30 to wear.noosers said:
I cannot refute your point about the rarity of magic noldor stuff for the player to get. I personally was bummed out though, to find that so many troops run around with "plain" noldor stuff around in the hundreds.
I never wear Noldor stuff either...though if I find some as loot, I give it to NPCs.noosers said:Me personally never used Noldor gear that much. It´s too ugly and I´m usually stuck with the heraldic mail with tabard, which is one of the best armours around. Rarely I upgrade it to Heraldic Plate or - if I get it - the Royal Plate Mail, the blue one with the yellow facings. It usually depends wether or not I can acquire a Noldor Captain Helmet.
It doesn't look so bad on the Noldor I think, but somehow it really sucks when my hero does.
On this point, I don't really like the Maltise armor either, for my hero OR my CKO.
What counts as a weak skirmisher? All the top line faction archers, with the exception of the Fierds and maybe D'Shar (never used their archers), do enough damage that they can devastate opposing armies. I'm not really concerned with realism, gameplay balance should be the priority. It can take a long time to get to an archer on foot, and if you don't have a shield, you aren't going to make, or rather the AI isn't going to make it, the player has skills he can use such as dodging. Furthermore, it's not a 100% sure thing once a footman makes it to an archer, he still has to fight hand-to-hand and may not be at 100% health. In all, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to raise the abilities of low level archers.
The Pendor Armored Bowman is CHEAP and easy to train up. They do not need a buff, they are near OP status.
One of the benefits of Noldor armor is that they weigh less than other comparable armor. Since I don't usually spend many points on athletics, weight is a factor, not a large one, but enough to at least merit some consideration.
I think the accuracy of the bows is very well balanced. I was one of the people who urged Floris Mod Pack to change the accuracy of their bows down from 100, which was way overpowered. The bow is still the best way to mow down opposing troops, and all without much risk if you position yourself right or are on a moving horse.
The Pendor Armored Bowman is CHEAP and easy to train up. They do not need a buff, they are near OP status.
One of the benefits of Noldor armor is that they weigh less than other comparable armor. Since I don't usually spend many points on athletics, weight is a factor, not a large one, but enough to at least merit some consideration.
I think the accuracy of the bows is very well balanced. I was one of the people who urged Floris Mod Pack to change the accuracy of their bows down from 100, which was way overpowered. The bow is still the best way to mow down opposing troops, and all without much risk if you position yourself right or are on a moving horse.
I'm talking about weak skirmishers, and you're talking about top-tier archers? Definitely not what I meant.azxcvbnm321 said:
With weak skirmishers, I mean low-tier ranged bowmen (not crossbows, because they're powerful enough):
lvl 10 Fierdsvain Huntsman, lvl 15 Fierdsvain Bowman
lvl 10 Mystmountain Raider, lvl 10 Brigand
lvl 15 Pendor Heavy Bowman
lvl 10 Ravenstern Skirmisher, lvl 15 Ravenstern Archer
lvl 15 Sarleon Skirmisher
etc....
Now, if you compare them to crossbow units, like lvl 10 snakecult armsman, lvl 15 heretic armsman, lvl 15 Empire levy skirmisher, etc...
the low-tier bowmen pose little to no danger at all to anyone in chainmail.
If you compare them to lvl 15 Fierdsvain light infantry, lvl 15 armsman, lvl 15 Ravenstern footman, etc...
I'm sure everyone can agree, the above infantry is more useful and more dangerous.
Heck, I've seen the above infantry ganging up on a knight and take him out. Something that doesn't happen, even if you have a dozen low-tier bowmen shooting at that knight.
