Believable ragdoll engine

[DiTTO]

Having a good believable ragdoll system/engine is a big thing in immersive games, rockstar games are always doing pretty amazing compared to other developers, the only reason why is because they implement euphoria engine into their game and that's its. I was wondering if taleworlds could consider to add it to bannerlord, it would be a fps hitter but damn, i bet the believable weapon impact, deaths and npc's trying to keep on standing and fighting while being seemingly wounded would be worth it.

What do you guys think? And shall we spread the word about this wonderfull simulation engine for human behaviour? How could we let taleworlds know this engine exists?

 

[lolbash]

They have repeatedly stated that they are using their own engine, and are less likely to use off the shelf tools and engines like Euphoria ragdoll.

I predict that is is going to be extreamly hard to convince Taleworlds at this point in time to suddenly drop everything and implement a new engine, and especially for a reason like more floppy ragdolls.

 

[Triune Impurity Rites 999]

Having a good believable ragdoll system/engine is a big thing in immersive games, rockstar games are always doing pretty amazing compared to other developers, the only reason why is because they implement euphoria engine into their game and that's its. I was wondering if taleworlds could consider to add it to bannerlord, it would be a fps hitter but damn, i bet the believable weapon impact, deaths and npc's trying to keep on standing and fighting while being seemingly wounded would be worth it.

What do you guys think? And shall we spread the word about this wonderfull simulation engine for human behaviour? How could we let taleworlds know this engine exists?

Go back in time like ... 3-8 years and send them a memo about this. I don't want to sound like Lolbash, but dude, why?

 

[Noudelle]

Like the commenters above said, it's way too late for that. And I also trust Taleworlds to deliver very well in that regard considering how many features/mechanics in this game are tied to physics. It just wouldn't make sense for them to make an entire physics engine for everything that's already in the game but the ragdolls.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Thinking about what kind of game Bannerlord is I think most ragdoll physics are well applied.
If I had to change anything it would be:

Spoiler: Gravity m/s slightly faster.

Spoiler: This pirouette is very Hollywood-ish. (if it were up to me, I would remove it from the final version)

Spoiler: The piling up of bodies together with collision would be an interesting contribution from my point of view to the playable experience.

 

[lolbash]

Spoiler: The piling up of bodies together with collision would be an interesting contribution from my point of view to the playable experience.

I hope you enjoy playing the game at Microsoft Slideshow speeds in terms of framerate.

 

[NPC99]

Given the scale of Bannerlord’s larger battles, I would settle for the current rag doll physics but the retention of most of the corpses that magically disappear to reduce the processing burden. I’d be happy with LOD3 corpses close up if we could have more of them.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

The ragdoll physics model used in GTA 4 relies on there being no more than about 10 people active at a given time. They actually ditched it for GTA V in favour of a simpler model. Also bear in mind that it was designed for civilian people avoiding cars and reacting to getting shot, not soldiers ragdolling after being smashed with a halberd.

Spoiler

 

[vicwiz007]

Not to beat this dead horse of a thread, but I don't even think Euphoria physics look that good. The best part about them is the way people react to being hit, but the weird stumbling and attempts to gain balance are really off-putting to the point where the people looks drunk. I don't want to see a bunch of soldiers fumbling about on the battlefield like your drunken uncle.

 

[wormydowg]

Spoiler

Bro, have you even been on 4chan?

euphoria looks nothing like the way people die in real life.

People drop like a bag of bricks. That is on average a 75 kilo body your talking about. Bullets and swords aren't going to move ****.

For the most part, Arma 3 (I lump them in, because their mechanics are kinda similar) and m&b warband have it more accurate than most.

There was a recent discussion on how much a sword weighs, and swords are pretty light.

Anyway, GTA's combat mechanics are suppose to be more reactive, because they want the user to get more response and power.
Idk about you, but I've done a lot of unspeakable things in gta, but i can't like watch actual videos of the same stuff......

Spoiler

If a game is too "ridiculous"  in its death mechanics, you get a lot of psychological effects that was shown in the famous bobo doll experiment. which was an experiment where kids would watch other kids pound on a giant doll, and then unintentionally emulate it them selves.

 

[Noudelle]

Thinking about what kind of game Bannerlord is I think most ragdoll physics are well applied.
If I had to change anything it would be:

Spoiler: The piling up of bodies together with collision would be an interesting contribution from my point of view to the playable experience.

Spoiler: The piling up of bodies together with collision would be an interesting contribution from my point of view to the playable experience.

I hope you enjoy playing the game at Microsoft Slideshow speeds in terms of framerate.

This is already in Warband though. How it works is when a character dies, it goes into ragdoll state until it stops moving (when it hits the ground), at which point the character returns to a static model. The ragdoll effect can also stop if the character spends too long in a ragdoll state without coming to a stop (for example if it's falling from a really high tower). Eventually the ragdolls will be disabled so that it doesn't hamper performance.
This system allows corpses to stack on top of each other without sacrificing any more performance than if the ragdolls were to hit any other static objects you'd find in Warband.
The effect doesn't look as good as in the gif shown, but it works and most importantly, it won't crash your PC.

Something to note: Ragdolls can and do interact with each other in Warband if they are activated simultaneously. Good examples of this are in sieges where a lot of soldiers die very close to each other. I haven't played Warband singleplayer in years now but I remember that when I used to play it on my older PC, ragdolls interacting with each other very noticeably hindered performance.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Spoiler

Thinking about what kind of game Bannerlord is I think most ragdoll physics are well applied.
If I had to change anything it would be:

Spoiler: The piling up of bodies together with collision would be an interesting contribution from my point of view to the playable experience.

Spoiler: The piling up of bodies together with collision would be an interesting contribution from my point of view to the playable experience.

I hope you enjoy playing the game at Microsoft Slideshow speeds in terms of framerate.

This is already in Warband though. How it works is when a character dies, it goes into ragdoll state until it stops moving (when it hits the ground), at which point the character returns to a static model. The ragdoll effect can also stop if the character spends too long in a ragdoll state without coming to a stop (for example if it's falling from a really high tower). Eventually the ragdolls will be disabled so that it doesn't hamper performance.
This system allows corpses to stack on top of each other without sacrificing any more performance than if the ragdolls were to hit any other static objects you'd find in Warband.
The effect doesn't look as good as in the gif shown, but it works and most importantly, it won't crash your PC.

Something to note: Ragdolls can and do interact with each other in Warband if they are activated simultaneously. Good examples of this are in sieges where a lot of soldiers die very close to each other. I haven't played Warband singleplayer in years now but I remember that when I used to play it on my older PC, ragdolls interacting with each other very noticeably hindered performance.

As in Warband and massively

Spoiler: With the permission of Count Delinard

+10 to inmersion

 

[Duh]

Pretty sure you can toggle it on/off as well.

 

[Count Delinard]

[quote author=Terco_Viejo ]

Spoiler: With the permission of Count Delinard

+10 to inmersion
[/quote]

Ahhhhhh, the good old days before 1.153 where you could have almost unlimited bodies without having to modify the game’s files and you never noticed them disappear right in front of your eyes.

They didn’t really pile up though, just mostly clipped over one another, total war style. If they piled up they’d require to be active ragdolls even after death so that you wouldn’t create walls of bodies  you could walk through, and that won’t happen.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Ahhhhhh, the good old days before 1.153 where you could have almost unlimited bodies without having to modify the game’s files and you never noticed them disappear right in front of your eyes.

They didn’t really pile up though, just mostly clipped over one another, total war style. If they piled up they’d require to be active ragdolls even after death so that you wouldn’t create walls of bodies  you could walk through, and that won’t happen.

I understand... having active ragdoll corpses would be very demanding. Technically Taleworlds could increase the number of corpses on scene... what do you think about how this feature is used in "Ultimate Epic Battle Simulator"?

Spoiler

Would you like to find the possibility of "stacking of bodies" in the final version?

 

[NPC99]

[quote author=Terco_Viejo ]

Spoiler: With the permission of Count Delinard

+10 to inmersion

Ahhhhhh, the good old days before 1.153 where you could have almost unlimited bodies without having to modify the game’s files and you never noticed them disappear right in front of your eyes.

They didn’t really pile up though, just mostly clipped over one another, total war style. If they piled up they’d require to be active ragdolls even after death so that you wouldn’t create walls of bodies  you could walk through, and that won’t happen.
[/quote]

Unlimited corpses would be great, however they would also be a constant reminder that the mass carnage of M&B battles is unrealistic. Historically, the rear areas of battles were flooded with injured and cowardly troops whether that side is winning or losing. Morale systems don’t work well in Warband, and even when they do, they tend to only focus on accelerating the flight of the losers. I’m probably in a minority, but I’d like a game mechanic that emphasised self presevation. Any non-hero agent that suffers a wound could be checked to see if they retire - retreating off the battlefield towards that armies start line. Unlike routing troops, they should also defend themselves if attacked but should refrain from fighting unless attacked. The random chance of retiring from battle should increase with the severity of an warrior’s cumulative wounds and be reduced by their experience level (i.e. some recruits panick following scratches while a few veterans plough on with crippling injuries).

 

[Orion]

While realistic, I think that would just get in the way. It's hard enough getting peasants to survive the run up to a melee, let alone the fighting itself. I don't think it would help if they ran away to your starting position after taking a hit. Presumably they would stop following orders to move & attack as well, so you would end up with a cluster of bozos sitting near a map edge that you have no control over.

 

[NPC99]

While realistic, I think that would just get in the way. It's hard enough getting peasants to survive the run up to a melee, let alone the fighting itself. I don't think it would help if they ran away to your starting position after taking a hit. Presumably they would stop following orders to move & attack as well, so you would end up with a cluster of bozos sitting near a map edge that you have no control over.

Mine’s a minority view, but I would want the ‘bozos’ concerned to retreat off the map, not clutter it up. Yes, I’d expect them to ignore orders - they’re only interested in getting their wounds dressed. Equally, I’d expect them to return to duty for the next battle unlike routed troops. The intention would be to:

1. Remove by random chance approx 50% of recuits with > 25% damage,
2. Remove by random chance approx 25% of veterans with > 75% damage,
3. Remove by random chance approx 30%  of others with > 50% damage

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Unlimited corpses would be great, however they would also be a constant reminder that the mass carnage of M&B battles is unrealistic. Historically, the rear areas of battles were flooded with injured and cowardly troops whether that side is winning or losing. Morale systems don’t work well in Warband, and even when they do, they tend to only focus on accelerating the flight of the losers. I’m probably in a minority, but I’d like a game mechanic that emphasised self presevation. Any non-hero agent that suffers a wound could be checked to see if they retire - retreating off the battlefield towards that armies start line. Unlike routing troops, they should also defend themselves if attacked but should refrain from fighting unless attacked. The random chance of retiring from battle should increase with the severity of an warrior’s cumulative wounds and be reduced by their experience level (i.e. some recruits panick following scratches while a few veterans plough on with crippling injuries).

I think you have a "modern" view of the subject in this respect and not of medieval/ancient war which is what concerns us. There is always talk of the heat of battle with a certain nuance, say, heroic or poetic.  But that din was not only produced by the noise of the weapons, but the screams of hundreds or thousands of wounded men who know that nobody will help them, dominated by an indefinable panic when they find themselves in that situation, unable to escape, trampled underfoot by their own comrades in arms who do not even realize where they are stepping and by the horses of the enemy. There are no toilets, no stretcher bearers, and no one will inject morphine to alleviate the pain. No hospital awaits them with qualified doctors who will stop the bleeding, nor will they give them a blood transfusion, analgesics or antibiotics. They know that if they come out of the battle alive, a fight to the death with infections and tetanus awaits them. How do men shout or, rather, howl in that circumstance? Imagine the capacity of a small football field where, instead of shouting "gooool", they scream in pain. And to that, add the wounded horses, mad with fear and racing with their guts hanging.

Seeing the clothing of your avatar you may be interested to know about the war scenario after the Battle of Lützen (1632) (if you don't already know). And assuming you are English, I invite you to learn more about the Battle of Townton (1461) (if you don't already know) or I wouldn't be a good Spaniard if I didn't tell you about the battle of the Navas de Tolosa (1212). If you know the history, there have been in it authentic carnage where the bodies literally piled up... for example the Battle of Alhandic:

The battle of Alhandic, also called the battle of the moat of Zamora, is a war event that occurred on August 5, 939 in the city of Zamora (Spain). The battle occurs when the troops of Abderramán III assault the walls of Zamora, defended by the troops of Ramiro II of the Kingdom of León. The confrontation was so bloody by both contenders that he could only bow victoriously to the assaulting side once the moat of the city wall was completely covered with corpses.

 

[Harmi]

Given the scale of Bannerlord’s larger battles, I would settle for the current ragdoll physics but the retention of most of the corpses that magically disappear to reduce the processing burden. I’d be happy with LOD3 corpses close up if we could have more of them.

Typically what I've understood game engines doing is that they remove the physics from their objects after a certain amount of time of no interaction with anything. So if you are able to kick a corpse, it will stay as physics object until you stop kicking it and after that, it has no interaction features and it will become a static scene object. The LOD has no effect on this. The physics object is a completely different low poly hitbox object that is parented to the high poly object and controls the high poly object movements.