Bannerlord Armor System as a bottleneck for tactical gameplay

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Medivhtratos

Sergeant at Arms
Does anybody know if they have implemented Armour reduction based on the material of the worn armor? I mean I know the code well regarding this aspect but I don't understand why they doesn't include it ( for your information the code in the xmls has tags for the Armour like "mail" or "leather" but it has no effect). In the end the armor with the highest stats are the best, but as i mentioned I would couple it with the type of the armor.
 
I think it affects stuff like hit sound and production from workshops and town. For example all cloth_civilian are produced by wool weavery (it is called garments in the workshop xml).
 
Regardless of whether Bannerlord is in the 11th century and armor is obviously not the same as it was in the High and Late Middle Ages, troops such as the Imperial Legionnaires are insanely well-armored. They are encased in steel and mail.

Realistically, you are not going to penetrate that with any melee weapon on foot, even a lance from a horse at full gallop probably wouldn't do it. Arrows would not be a reliable weapon, they could theoretically penetrate but it's a big maybe dependant on multiple factors. The way they are armored, the only vulnerabilities are the unexposed face and possible blunt force trauma to the helmet.

I do not think that it would be balanced if the armor protected you quite this well, but clearly, the armor is far, far weaker than it should be. A hundred Legionnaires should cream a pure army of recruits 5 times their size.
 

five bucks

Sergeant
@hruza
how about this?

t5 died while dueling the second recruit. if we consider the pilum thrown at the start a kill, t5 can kill 2 recruits before getting killed.

i used enhanced battle test for this.

i did the test 10 times.
the average is 2.5. the numbers are without the pilum kill. with it, the average would be 3.5. it's too low.
test number...... .........number of t5 unit kills
t10
t21
t34
t42
t54
t63
t74
t82
t90
t105
Nice. I think that an ideal to work for is "Tier represents how many T1 recruits you can take on average." For example, 1 T6 banner knight can kill 6 T1 recruits, but no more than that. To me that seems nice and easy to remember, and reasonably realistic.
Regardless of whether Bannerlord is in the 11th century and armor is obviously not the same as it was in the High and Late Middle Ages, troops such as the Imperial Legionnaires are insanely well-armored. They are encased in steel and mail.

Realistically, you are not going to penetrate that with any melee weapon on foot, even a lance from a horse at full gallop probably wouldn't do it. Arrows would not be a reliable weapon, they could theoretically penetrate but it's a big maybe dependant on multiple factors. The way they are armored, the only vulnerabilities are the unexposed face and possible blunt force trauma to the helmet.

I do not think that it would be balanced if the armor protected you quite this well, but clearly, the armor is far, far weaker than it should be. A hundred Legionnaires should cream a pure army of recruits 5 times their size.
Yeah, this. I don't know much about lamellar or scale, but when it comes to mail, I know that the highest quality double mail with padding beneath was almost completely arrow-proof and totally cut-proof. You could only pierce it with a very powerful piercing thrust, or a hard blunt impact to break bones and cause internal bleeding (or many blunt hits, like bashing away with a sword; the sword wouldn't cut through mail but you might break a joint eventually).

 
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Apocal

Master Knight
@Dejan can you ask if the material flag (Cloth, Leather, Chainmail, Plate) for armor is supposed to be used in armor calculations? It occurs to me that if it is meant to apply an additional bonus for the more protective types, then we might just be victims of an unfortunate and longstanding bug.
 
Nice. I think that an ideal to work for is "Tier represents how many T1 recruits you can take on average." For example, 1 T6 banner knight can kill 6 T1 recruits, but no more than that. To me that seems nice and easy to remember, and reasonably realistic.
Since I have nothing better to do, let's analyze this statement and why it's not a good idea.

To simplify things, let's assume the TN troop is standing and surrounded by N T1 troops hitting him, while TN is hitting one T1 at a time until the T1 killed.
Let's say S is the number of seconds TN needs to kill a T1, and D is the damage per second a T1 inflicts on TN.
So for one on one combat, TN will kill T1 in S seconds, and receive S*D damage in return.
You with me still? Then let's see how much damage TN receives as the number of T1s grows.
1 T1: S*D damage
2 T1: S*D (from the first T1 to be killed) + 2*S*D (from the second)
3 T1: S*D + 2*S*D + 3*S*D = (1+2+3)*S*D
N T1: (1+2+...+N)*S*D = N*(N+1)*S*D/2

So you can see that the combat skill (weapons, armor, skills) of TN as N grows needs to grow at a square rate. That means T3 (N^2=9) needs to be at least twice as good at combat than T2 (N^2=4). T6 is nine times better at combat than T2, etc. That''s a pretty steep rate.
A more conventional tiering system would be a linear one, where T6 is only three times better at combat than T2.

The conclusion is that the number of T1 killed is not a useful standard for determining what a tiered troop should do. Stick with linear increases in weapon/armor stats and skills or something.
Or you could turn this around and say let's adopt a linear system, but still use how many T1 a troop can kill - use square roots.
For example, a T2 should be able to kill 1.4 T1 troops, a T4 should be able to kill 2 T1 troops, etc. or in general a TN should be able to kill sqrt(N) T1 troops.

Hope that helps! :iamamoron:
 
@Dejan can you ask if the material flag (Cloth, Leather, Chainmail, Plate) for armor is supposed to be used in armor calculations? It occurs to me that if it is meant to apply an additional bonus for the more protective types, then we might just be victims of an unfortunate and longstanding bug.

There is no mention of material type in calculation of damage and armor penetration whatsoever. It is used for physics of visuals (cloth behaves different then "plate") and for sound unit makes when they run and when the armor is hit be wood / metal etc. Its not bug. Armor is determined only by armor value nothing else, I know because we wanted to implement angle based bouncing for leather and plate.
 

Dejan

Community Manager
WBNWVCM&B
@Dejan can you ask if the material flag (Cloth, Leather, Chainmail, Plate) for armor is supposed to be used in armor calculations? It occurs to me that if it is meant to apply an additional bonus for the more protective types, then we might just be victims of an unfortunate and longstanding bug.
Apologies for the late reply. The material flag is used for sound only, nothing else.
 
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