about the block in combat

[ajvnfreitas]

I'm testing beta 1.2.3, could you please reduce the combat blocking a bit? It's a bit ridiculous that looters with a small hammer in their hand seem like Jedi masters; it's hard to land any blows while mounted so frequently. This is the case on all difficulty levels of the game. I find it somewhat absurd that a small hammer can block a lance charge at high speed or a strike from a giant axe, lol. Could you please balance this? Basically, the only effective way to kill looters in the beta is with ranged weapons because of this. I'm not sure if it's a bug, but I find it very strange.

 

[Jespo]

Feint your attacks

 

[ajvnfreitas]

Feint your attacks

I can do that, but I don't want to rely on glitches or AI shortcomings to exploit something that's completely unrealistic. I just want smooth and normal gameplay without a bunch of Jedi masters, and there's no way to pretend to make attacks when you're on horseback with a lance

 

[swally0ne]

Feint your attacks

is not making any difference+you can not feint spear thrusts.

@Dejan i think it's a little bit too much aswell. Also on bigger fights non shielded units block like on meth no matter the tier. would like to see cleave damage on any higher tier weapon so that at least a litte ammount of damage is comming through or something like that.

 

[niekdegrijze]

Yes I would hope that in the future a crush through mechanic can be introduced. For instance with assigning a maximum block power to weapons. this can be checked against the calculated damage. The crush through should only happen if the disparity between the block power and the attack damage is to high, this to avoid disrupting the current system to much. A system like this would filter out the most immersive breaking blocks.

 

[Dalitso]

Yes, I think its an AI system called auto block. I find it overkill as well and less immersive than Warband Vanilla. I also feel mounted combat suffers because of this as well and its difficult to do in battle and only useful for retreating enemies, even then its still cancer. We need to make it more enjoyable and fun like Warband use to be. Its okay if its easier, we want to have fun. Not sweat in PvE. Something to consider.

 

[Jespo]

>If you are on horseback charging into enemy creates ministun, then release your attack.
>Turn horse in opposite direction after attack, then attack.
>Chamber block.
>Attack while enemy is focused on your troops.
>Use weapon with crush through.
>On foot? walk backwards kick him in the nuts, then release your attack.

Once skills become max combat feels easy regardless.

These are just tips, however i understand youd prefer an easier setting to allow for more casual gameplay.

 

[Dabos37]

@Dejan I think blocking is perfect, please do not nerf it. Thanks for finally make the game a bit challenging.

I have not a strong opinion about spear trust attacks on horse, but nerfing blocking in general would be a mistake. Anyway, I personally have 0 issues getting tons of kills every battle as always on horse and on foot.

 

[saittam]

I agree it´s very unrealistic when a looter stops a swinging polerarm from horseback at full charge.

 

[swally0ne]

Anyway, I personally have 0 issues getting tons of kills every battle as always on horse and on foot.

that's not the point.

the point is, that it's a ****ty feeling to see a looter having the same blocking behaviour like a sturgian heavy axeman. there is simply no difference between, as there should be.
while it is fair to discuss about how to approach the issue, i think it's quite missing the point if you just cheese it til you eat it and claim it's good like that.

of course if you do 180 chamber blocks to attack, backstab or outrange the enemy you wont see a problem, because that simply isn't the point.

>If you are on horseback charging into enemy creates ministun, then release your attack.

this is true, but has nothing to do with blocking behaviour.

>Turn horse in opposite direction after attack, then attack.
>Chamber block.

works great on a controller

>Attack while enemy is focused on your troops.

that isn't related to the blocking behaviour

>Use weapon with crush through.

you can not crush through a weapon block

>On foot? walk backwards kick him in the nuts, then release your attack.

kick->attack is slower than the ai enemy returning to blocking. only works in multiplayer.

Once skills become max combat feels easy regardless.

once again not the point. point is blocking behaviour is the same between tiers + low tier weapons able to block everything regardless anything. looters/low tiers with tools as weapons shouldn't block like they are exiled highly trained fighting units. it's not a good feel.

 

[Goyyyio]

I can do that, but I don't want to rely on glitches or AI shortcomings to exploit something that's completely unrealistic. I just want smooth and normal gameplay without a bunch of Jedi masters, and there's no way to pretend to make attacks when you're on horseback with a lance

Feinting is a normal ability anyone can do since Warband and it's a purposeful mechanic. In fact, AI "Brainy bots" mod for Warband made it so the AI can faint and hold their attacks to trick you the player and made the game way more interesting. In fact feinting is something you can do in real life lmao. It's not a glitch, it's an intended mechanic. Use it. Unless you just want to spam the click button and murder everyone which is kinda boring in my opinion and requires no skill.

So what I'm trying to say, skill issue.

 

[Dabos37]

that's not the point.

the point is, that it's a ****ty feeling to see a looter having the same blocking behaviour like a sturgian heavy axeman. there is simply no difference between, as there should be.
while it is fair to discuss about how to approach the issue, i think it's quite missing the point if you just cheese it til you eat it and claim it's good like that.

of course if you do 180 chamber blocks to attack, backstab or outrange the enemy you wont see a problem, because that simply isn't the point.

this is true, but has nothing to do with blocking behaviour.

works great on a controller

that isn't related to the blocking behaviour

you can not crush through a weapon block

kick->attack is slower than the ai enemy returning to blocking. only works in multiplayer.

once again not the point. point is blocking behaviour is the same between tiers + low tier weapons able to block everything regardless anything. looters/low tiers with tools as weapons shouldn't block like they are exiled highly trained fighting units. it's not a good feel.

A looter is not even close to be as good as T5 infantry units at fighting. It is true that all units, looters included, are able to block some attacks, but units with high weapon skill are better at blocking than looters, and rarely block in a wrong direction like happens pretty often when fighting against looters.

This is specially noticeable in Battania tournaments where units with higher two handed skill fight considerably better. Low skilled units are not even able to block two consecutive attacks.

 

[ajvnfreitas]

Feinting é uma habilidade normal que qualquer um pode fazer desde Warband e é uma mecânica proposital. Na verdade, AI "Brainy bots" mod para Warband fez com que a IA pode desmaiar e segurar seus ataques para enganar você o jogador e tornou o jogo muito mais interessante. Na verdade, fingir é algo que você pode fazer na vida real lmao. Não é uma falha, é uma mecânica intencional. Use-o. A menos que você só queira enviar spam no botão de clique e assassinar todo mundo, o que é meio chato na minha opinião e não requer habilidade.

Então, o que eu estou tentando dizer, questão de habilidade.

Faking the attack doesn't work anymore, I'm almost certain of that.

Do you know what's annoying? Try a battle where you're 1v5. You against 5 looters. You only have a spear and a horse at the beginning of the game. Then come back here and tell me about the experience... If it's on a higher difficulty level, it's fine for the game to be like that, I also enjoy a challenging game. The problem is that excessive attack blocking exists in all difficulties and specific situations.

There's no need to remove blocking from the game. It just doesn't make sense for troops with no training to defend in this way, as if they were master fencers when they're only using a flimsy weapon that can stop a cavalry lance charge. It makes no sense at all, and it's not enjoyable. If it works for you, I respect that. It's just not my preference.

This is more complex than it seems. Basically, if you use arrows, there's no difficulty at all in killing looters. This makes archery gameplay a lot of fun. But how do you have fun playing as a knight? I work, I have a life, and I have limited time to play. I don't want to spend 30 minutes in every battle with looters or in tournaments I participate in at the beginning of the game just to make some progress with my character because the normal mode of the game has this issue. If you think this is a difficulty of the game, it would be very simple to resolve. Just keep this attack blocking in the harder modes (although I still think it's not healthy for the game, it's very bizarre to see looters defending everything).

 

[Dabos37]

Faking the attack doesn't work anymore, I'm almost certain of that.

Do you know what's annoying? Try a battle where you're 1v5. You against 5 looters. You only have a spear and a horse at the beginning of the game. Then come back here and tell me about the experience... If it's on a higher difficulty level, it's fine for the game to be like that, I also enjoy a challenging game. The problem is that excessive attack blocking exists in all difficulties and specific situations.

There's no need to remove blocking from the game. It just doesn't make sense for troops with no training to defend in this way, as if they were master fencers when they're only using a flimsy weapon that can stop a cavalry lance charge. It makes no sense at all, and it's not enjoyable. If it works for you, I respect that. It's just not my preference.

This is more complex than it seems. Basically, if you use arrows, there's no difficulty at all in killing looters. This makes archery gameplay a lot of fun. But how do you have fun playing as a knight? I work, I have a life, and I have limited time to play. I don't want to spend 30 minutes in every battle with looters or in tournaments I participate in at the beginning of the game just to make some progress with my character because the normal mode of the game has this issue. If you think this is a difficulty of the game, it would be very simple to resolve. Just keep this attack blocking in the harder modes (although I still think it's not healthy for the game, it's very bizarre to see looters defending everything).

Playing as a knights is enjoyable, and you can get tons of kills every battle. It is just not great when you are fighting 1v5 against looters the Day1.

 

[ajvnfreitas]

Playing as a knights is enjoyable, and you can get tons of kills every battle. It is just not great when you are fighting 1v5 against looters the Day1.

If you're in a balanced fight and end up with just a few soldiers left against you, there's nothing you can do. Because the characters aren't distracted, they target you, and that's it. The super defense mode doesn't let you win.

 

[Goyyyio]

Faking the attack doesn't work anymore, I'm almost certain of that.

Do you know what's annoying? Try a battle where you're 1v5. You against 5 looters. You only have a spear and a horse at the beginning of the game. Then come back here and tell me about the experience... If it's on a higher difficulty level, it's fine for the game to be like that, I also enjoy a challenging game. The problem is that excessive attack blocking exists in all difficulties and specific situations.

There's no need to remove blocking from the game. It just doesn't make sense for troops with no training to defend in this way, as if they were master fencers when they're only using a flimsy weapon that can stop a cavalry lance charge. It makes no sense at all, and it's not enjoyable. If it works for you, I respect that. It's just not my preference.

This is more complex than it seems. Basically, if you use arrows, there's no difficulty at all in killing looters. This makes archery gameplay a lot of fun. But how do you have fun playing as a knight? I work, I have a life, and I have limited time to play. I don't want to spend 30 minutes in every battle with looters or in tournaments I participate in at the beginning of the game just to make some progress with my character because the normal mode of the game has this issue. If you think this is a difficulty of the game, it would be very simple to resolve. Just keep this attack blocking in the harder modes (although I still think it's not healthy for the game, it's very bizarre to see looters defending everything).

I kinda get what you mean, Taleworlds has big issues making their options manegeable, not to say they're pretty terrible at it. The Warband AI mod that turned them into gods allowed you to change the amount of chance the bots had of blocking, or feinting or anything, which made it less annoying in the situations you're talking about, while also keeping it difficult, it also depended on the levels but Looters blocked well there too. Taleworlds won't add such a thing because I guess that would mess their UI or something.

On the other hand, it is possible to kill looters just using your horse and spear, you have to bump them with your horse and hit them when you bump. It's called bump-hit or some stuff like that we used a lot in multiplayer. The other way you can sneak an attack is to not hold your spear attack until you're close to them, but to wait until they're about to attack you. It requires a lot of feinting the spear and well managment of the horse at the same time. The easiest way is to earn enough money to buy a lance that does crouch. Crouched lances can't be blocked and the AI can't do anything about it (unless they have spears which they will use to stop your horse). And always aiming for the distracted dumbass that is outside the group. I would record what I do but I'm out in vacation.

On the other hand, for me taking my time killing looters in 1v10 was stupid fun because outsmarting them made me feel that idea you have of a knight. But yes, I guess we have different playstyles, apologies if I was rude earlier. I hope you can get this sorted out.

 

[saittam]

If you're in a balanced fight and end up with just a few soldiers left against you, there's nothing you can do. Because the characters aren't distracted, they target you, and that's it. The super defense mode doesn't let you win.

If you charge 5 dudes alone one is bound to hit you. You should not be able to stand your ground 1v5 regardless of their tier. Unless you can scatter them.

 

[ajvnfreitas]

If you charge 5 dudes alone one is bound to hit you. You should not be able to stand your ground 1v5 regardless of their tier. Unless you can scatter them.

Take out 4 fighters then and make it 1v1. If he's paying attention to you, you won't be able to hit him either. And this doesn't make sense because if you're equipped with endgame armor, a horse, and a lance, you won't hit them the same way if they're paying attention to you.

In this situation, he will keep blocking all your attacks while on horseback.

 

[Totalgarbage]

Well, one possible remedy for single-player only is for units (including the player) to take some of the damage if they're blocking a swinging polearm or 2-handed weapon slash with a one-handed weapon (not shield) but they won't get staggered due to the damage. I'm not sure what the appropriate percentage of damage that is blocked/passes through the block would be though.

 

[froggyluv]

Well, one possible remedy for single-player only is for units (including the player) to take some of the damage if they're blocking a swinging polearm or 2-handed weapon slash with a one-handed weapon (not shield) but they won't get staggered due to the damage. I'm not sure what the appropriate percentage of damage that is blocked/passes through the block would be though.

Isnt that kinda what RMB does (Posture Break) to a degree or am I misunderstanding this?