about the block in combat

[Dabos37]

If you're in a balanced fight and end up with just a few soldiers left against you, there's nothing you can do. Because the characters aren't distracted, they target you, and that's it. The super defense mode doesn't let you win.

Not my experience if I have a couchable lance. Otherwise yes, if I am the only survivor.

Anyway, nerfing blocking for this specific scenario is not a great idea IMO.

 

[Totalgarbage]

Isnt that kinda what RMB does (Posture Break) to a degree or am I misunderstanding this?

In RMB, about half the time you break someone's posture (takes a couple of hits to achieve) you deal partial damage and stagger the enemy, and the other half of the time the enemy falls to the ground. The fighters' weapon types or weights don't matter, just the overall damage which decide the posture damage & athletics skill which determines the amount of posture afaik.

My suggestion would have characters who are blocking a hit with a 1h weapon without shields against a swingable polearm or a 2h weapon (this mechanic could also be made to take damage from any melee weapon over x weight or length) take some damage for blocking, but not be staggered by the damage. So for example looters (who don't have shields) would take damage every time they block a heroic linebreaker's axe attack. But in exchange, since the looters are not stunned/staggered by the damage they gained from blocking, they still have a chance of inflicting casualties as their shorter weapons are faster than the heroic linebreakers'. I don't know what the ideal % of the damage that goes through the block should be though.

 

[Overestimated]

In my experience the blocking does seem like a bit too much, there are ways to get around it like using couched lances, ranged attacks, crushthroughweapons or using a very fast weapon. Chamber blocking also works if you have a super armored character because even if you miss and take less than 5 damage the enemy attacks will not stop yours.

I have tried using fients but they don't seem to work on the AI in my experience.

In the earlier patches though no one blocked and it was terrible, I think it would be good they made lower skill levels somewhat less likely to block and higher skills even more likely to block than they already are, I think it would make high skill lords really stand out in the wars and since they always start out in the battles making them more skilled would make it a bit more likely that they could survive until the end of a long battle.

 

[froggyluv]

I think it would make high skill lords really stand out in the wars and since they always start out in the battles making them more skilled would make it a bit more likely that they could survive until the end of a long battle.

Funny enough this is somethinhg that Taleworlds had always managed to get right. Even back in M&B 1 you could literally feel the skill difference between the skill levels.

 

[SudianX]

I gave up on trying to use couched attacks because of the 99% chance of any and every target successfully blocking me . At least in Warband (last mod I played, anyways) I had the satisfaction of seeing the shield go flying off and knowing the target could not do it again.

The shields in Bannerlord also seem to be way too strong for their weak wooden appearance.

 

[ajvnfreitas]

Funny enough this is somethinhg that Taleworlds had always managed to get right. Even back in M&B 1 you could literally feel the skill difference between the skill levels.

Exactly, this problem is very strange.

 

[ajvnfreitas]

I gave up on trying to use couched attacks because of the 99% chance of any and every target successfully blocking me . At least in Warband (last mod I played, anyways) I had the satisfaction of seeing the shield go flying off and knowing the target could not do it again.

The shields in Bannerlord also seem to be way too strong for their weak wooden appearance.

I remember that in Mount and Blade Warband, when you attack a shield with a lance charge, the damage to the shield increases and it breaks more easily. The knights’ lances also end up breaking. this is very cool.

 

[Jespo]

that's not the point.

the point is, that it's a ****ty feeling to see a looter having the same blocking behaviour like a sturgian heavy axeman. there is simply no difference between, as there should be.
while it is fair to discuss about how to approach the issue, i think it's quite missing the point if you just cheese it til you eat it and claim it's good like that.

of course if you do 180 chamber blocks to attack, backstab or outrange the enemy you wont see a problem, because that simply isn't the point.

this is true, but has nothing to do with blocking behaviour.

works great on a controller

that isn't related to the blocking behaviour

you can not crush through a weapon block

kick->attack is slower than the ai enemy returning to blocking. only works in multiplayer.

once again not the point. point is blocking behaviour is the same between tiers + low tier weapons able to block everything regardless anything. looters/low tiers with tools as weapons shouldn't block like they are exiled highly trained fighting units. it's not a good feel.

I am sure you can crush through a weapon block with certain weapons.
With 2hweapon and (1h weapons without a shield, i think) you can hold overhead, kick, then release weapon.



I agree with your point, that low tier untrained troops ideally shouldn't have the blocking ability as higher tier troops. {Personally i have not verified this} AI can be so exploited anyway that it hardly doesnt matter.

 

[STcloz]

I can do that, but I don't want to rely on glitches or AI shortcomings to exploit something that's completely unrealistic. I just want smooth and normal gameplay without a bunch of Jedi masters, and there's no way to pretend to make attacks when you're on horseback with a lance

Jedi masters? I can live with that. But block a heavy cavalry's charge with a knife? Whenever I meet such problems, I just tell myself that it's just a game, or I'll go crazy.

 

[ajvnfreitas]

Jedi masters? I can live with that. But block a heavy cavalry's charge with a knife? Whenever I meet such problems, I just tell myself that it's just a game, or I'll go crazy.

If this is in the ultra-hard mode of the game, I see no problem. But I’m not always in the mood to be abusing glitches or game AI failures to have an acceptable gameplay and hit enemies. Many times I want to play normal just to relax and with that it becomes impossible. Another thing… my cousin who has motor disability due to a stroke really likes the game and is not able to play in these situations because his brain response is a little slower, he told me. Do you think this is accessible? All the difficulties with the super blocking dolls? When you see a situation like this, I think you don’t have to think only about you or me. Not everyone likes to play the way you or I like. Try to look at it from this other side too.

And I doubt this is intentional. It’s more of a bug in the game among others. Never was it supposed to be like this. They tried to improve the AI and forgot about this. They forgot that the dolls were at the same level of fight unless the dolls have a VERY VERY high skill like a lord, there is no difference between them.

Since Mount & Blade Warband, this has always been something right. You could feel the difference between the dolls well. I don’t understand why they have such a great difficulty in this now.

 

[Dabos37]

Well, we already have a difficulty setting for the AI, but sadly it looks like there is not difference at all.

I find the new blocking for the AI great, and I hope TW do not nerf it if I am playing at highest difficulty.

On the other hand, I think people is overreacting a bit, and the AI is still pretty much easy to defeat, and low skilled soldiers are still really bad at blocking.

TW, please do not nerf the AI in highest difficulty. Please don’t!!!

 

[Dalitso]

Agreed. I remember in Warband you use to be able to train with your companions and your troops at the training fields. Kinda disappointed that they did not include this in Bannerlord as it also gave companions and troops experience. I was able to 1v5 my best and it taught me how to deal with a group outnumbered. Unfortunately, due to the fast pace reation time of the AI in Bannerlord it is very difficult but not impossible if you really focus.

Faking the attack doesn't work anymore, I'm almost certain of that.

Do you know what's annoying? Try a battle where you're 1v5. You against 5 looters. You only have a spear and a horse at the beginning of the game. Then come back here and tell me about the experience... If it's on a higher difficulty level, it's fine for the game to be like that, I also enjoy a challenging game. The problem is that excessive attack blocking exists in all difficulties and specific situations.

There's no need to remove blocking from the game. It just doesn't make sense for troops with no training to defend in this way, as if they were master fencers when they're only using a flimsy weapon that can stop a cavalry lance charge. It makes no sense at all, and it's not enjoyable. If it works for you, I respect that. It's just not my preference.

This is more complex than it seems. Basically, if you use arrows, there's no difficulty at all in killing looters. This makes archery gameplay a lot of fun. But how do you have fun playing as a knight? I work, I have a life, and I have limited time to play. I don't want to spend 30 minutes in every battle with looters or in tournaments I participate in at the beginning of the game just to make some progress with my character because the normal mode of the game has this issue. If you think this is a difficulty of the game, it would be very simple to resolve. Just keep this attack blocking in the harder modes (although I still think it's not healthy for the game, it's very bizarre to see looters defending everything).

 

[ajvnfreitas]

Agreed. I remember in Warband you use to be able to train with your companions and your troops at the training fields. Kinda disappointed that they did not include this in Bannerlord as it also gave companions and troops experience. I was able to 1v5 my best and it taught me how to deal with a group outnumbered. Unfortunately, due to the fast pace reation time of the AI in Bannerlord it is very difficult but not impossible if you really focus.

my friend, the game bannerlord does not have even the military camp that has in warband when it stops on the map. it does not even have the books… bannerlord is a game with fewer features than warband.

in relation to concentrating to fight against a smaller group… I can kill even an army if I have ammo for the crossbow. but the point is not to fight against several alone. because as a player who plays this game for many years I can do it.

 

[froggyluv]

But block a heavy cavalry's charge with a knife?

Yeah I noticed this early on too. On one level I was glad that potentially anyone can be lethal (which is true in reality) but at the very least for gameplay balancing -it should pretty rare if ever. Honestly ive mixed feelings on the AI ,on one hand they are very robust on quick type reactions as well as independent in terms of grabbing a free horse or weapon off the ground with no delay. Hell Arma bots cant pick up anything -ever -and thats with like 10 menu command menus to go thru in vain.

As far as your example, I do wish the AI had the ability to pull off sidestep type moves like from a charging horse, as well as having some sort of control over their own speed like moving low, sprinting etc... AI's tough to get right but overall i do like this games battle mechanics. Strategy campaign AI on the other hand.....

 

[TeemoQuinton]

Crouched lances can't be blocked and the AI can't do anything about it (unless they have spears which they will use to stop your horse). And always aiming for the distracted dumbass that is outside the group. I would record what I do but I'm out in vacation.

A shame that couched lances in this game are... Pretty awful comparing to Warband. The shield is almost entirely a nonfactor for some reason, the range gets outdone by a pitchfork even if you have like 60 range on it and no matter the spear skill it'll bounce like you're shaking a pool noodle. Not to say it's useless, it just need to be reworked... And the bouncing to actually be reasonable.

 

[RJ_Sera]

Block more to prolong the battle is a good idea, i think so too. But I'm using 100% xp to train combat skill in practice fight arena and damn it's really annoying, even an archer so cunning, he blocked all my attack and when i began my swing, he hit me right at the time i hold my sword up. I know there is a video that a guy without armor and no skills that win 12 tournament but look he said that it's easier but i feel like he put more effort there, even he lose the first tournament

 

[Bluko88]

Block more to prolong the battle is a good idea, i think so too. But I'm using 100% xp to train combat skill in practice fight arena and damn it's really annoying, even an archer so cunning, he blocked all my attack and when i began my swing, he hit me right at the time i hold my sword up. I know there is a video that a guy without armor and no skills that win 12 tournament but look he said that it's easier but i feel like he put more effort there, even he lose the first tournament

IDK, maybe I'm losing it but I feel like in Practice Matches the A.I. is channeling their inner Shaolin monks. They block everything. Also I feel like a Looter blocking my lance with a tiny hand hammer is a tad unrealistic. Weapon weight and speed should effect the success of a block, especially if the blocking element is a tiny dagger.

But in actual Tournaments the A.I. seems about as dumb ever, they block a bit better, but even as a lowly adventurer you can prevail against veteran warriors and lords. Though "Doom Stick" matches (Glaives/Billhooks) are certainly more tense. I'm not sure what Strat was going on about with the game being "easier" it's definitely not by most folks definition, or my own. I mean yes the A.I. is pausing more so they can react and are attacking less randomly. But I get the feeling Strat is hyper aggressive, so maybe that makes it easier for him? Or maybe his install got borked? Or he was just tired of Bannerlord?

The only thing I struggle with is getting the correct attack/block position maybe about 1/5th of the time. I should probably revisit controls, but I'm also not about to start swinging my mouse all over the desk just so I get the right direction.


The early game would be more bearable if you actually got full XP for potential damage, shouldn't hitting your target be what matters? It seems backwards that attacking a Looter from behind grants you more "XP" than having a prolonged duel with an equally skilled opponent for minutes where you both are blocking each others attacks perfectly. Pretty sure most fighters/combatants become good through practice/training, combat experience helps sure, but most "masters" are the result of lots of practice.

If nothing else how about reducing the XP penalty for Practice Matches? It's like a 90% reduction or something right now? How about just 50%? Honestly I'd rather Practice/Tournaments give you full XP, but maybe limit Practice to 1x a day or as soon as you get knocked out. Always seemed silly you can just magically recover from getting your butt kicked constantly. Practice as is just a total waste of time, other than maybe getting a few skills to like 25.

Why this game insists on making most everything an MMO level grind is beyond me. Especially for Companions, I mean if it's not Scouting, Charm, Steward or otherwise passive that skill is not gonna increase meaningfully in your lifetime.

 

[RJ_Sera]

IDK, maybe I'm losing it but I feel like in Practice Matches the A.I. is channeling their inner Shaolin monks. They block everything. Also I feel like a Looter blocking my lance with a tiny hand hammer is a tad unrealistic. Weapon weight and speed should effect the success of a block, especially if the blocking element is a tiny dagger.

But in actual Tournaments the A.I. seems about as dumb ever, they block a bit better, but even as a lowly adventurer you can prevail against veteran warriors and lords. Though "Doom Stick" matches (Glaives/Billhooks) are certainly more tense. I'm not sure what Strat was going on about with the game being "easier" it's definitely not by most folks definition, or my own. I mean yes the A.I. is pausing more so they can react and are attacking less randomly. But I get the feeling Strat is hyper aggressive, so maybe that makes it easier for him? Or maybe his install got borked? Or he was just tired of Bannerlord?

The only thing I struggle with is getting the correct attack/block position maybe about 1/5th of the time. I should probably revisit controls, but I'm also not about to start swinging my mouse all over the desk just so I get the right direction.


The early game would be more bearable if you actually got full XP for potential damage, shouldn't hitting your target be what matters? It seems backwards that attacking a Looter from behind grants you more "XP" than having a prolonged duel with an equally skilled opponent for minutes where you both are blocking each others attacks perfectly. Pretty sure most fighters/combatants become good through practice/training, combat experience helps sure, but most "masters" are the result of lots of practice.

If nothing else how about reducing the XP penalty for Practice Matches? It's like a 90% reduction or something right now? How about just 50%? Honestly I'd rather Practice/Tournaments give you full XP, but maybe limit Practice to 1x a day or as soon as you get knocked out. Always seemed silly you can just magically recover from getting your butt kicked constantly. Practice as is just a total waste of time, other than maybe getting a few skills to like 25.

Why this game insists on making most everything an MMO level grind is beyond me. Especially for Companions, I mean if it's not Scouting, Charm, Steward or otherwise passive that skill is not gonna increase meaningfully in your lifetime.

i think practice fight should be full xp and unlimited
1. I did train my character to expert in it and i know it's not magically fast, you should try to see my point
2. This only an offline game, maybe make it optional to fit everyone (bannerlord need tweaks btw)
we need realistic logic but hey, we only have 84days/year. and a man spending all his stamina to craft some weapons still be able to go out and kill some looters with full strength. We need realistic but not everything 100%