A response to all the complaining about the recent economy changes

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I'm not going to read more than the second paragraph, just going to point out that you missing the entire point of people complaining about the Caravan/Economy change, which is that these features were rolled into the stable patch branch without being properly tested in the beta/alpha brances first completely defeating the purpose of having alpha/beta branches in the first place.

Next time before resorting to the low IQ "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" kneejerk response to stifle any critique or criticism directed at the game, please try to actual understand the reason why the community is upset in the first place.
 
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The Leviathan said:
I'm not going to read more than the first paragraph, just going to point out that you missing the entire point of people complaining about the Caravan/Economy change, which is that these features were rolled into the stable patch branch without being properly tested in the beta/alpha brances first completely defeating the purpose of having alpha/beta branches in the first place.

Next time before resorting to the low IQ "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" kneejerk response to stifle any critique or criticism directed at the game, please try to actual understand the reason why the community is upset in the first place.
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Exactly.

Like personally I don't even give a damn about Caravans because I don't even use them, I make money just warmongering, but I also think they shouldn't be wasting their time trying to balance the early game economy when so much content in the game isn't even implemented yet. Priorities should be...

Gamebreaking bugs > Content > Minor Bugs > Is everything working? > Ok, now balance it

With the latest patches someone or maybe a team of people seems to be focused on trying to balance the early game economy when most of the features that will effect the economy aren't even in the game yet. If you balance the economy without those things existing, you're just going to have to rebalance it once they are. So don't waste your time. Work on something more useful.
 
Ok it all boils down to this:

and whilst caravans will need further fine tuning (like lower starting costs and raising the cap back to around 50-60), it was needed for a balanced game.
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The devs did not make those proper changes to go along with it AND they never bothered to test it on beta branch like they should have. They just hamfisted a nerf at the last minute with no testing whatsoever.

Beta would have easily uncovered all the problems this change had. And any tweaks to it could have been tested as well, before going live. What's the point of beta when changes like this aren't tested on it?
 
I know people keep saying caravans are broken, the game is ruined, toads are falling from the sky etc. But did you people even use the caravans? They're still profitable, particularly early and midgame when you're not involved in multiple wars. They do their thing for quite a while, on average earning money. There's been threads and intensive tests into it. Though admittedly those useful discussions keep getting buried by the whining...

The only inconvenience is setting them up every couple months and fetching your companion. Which could be made a bit easier; perhaps the companion could just come back to you a few days after losing the caravan and start a dialogue to invest in starting the caravan back up, so you don't have to do it manually again?
 
I really do not get why people are complaining about last economy changes. It is still too easy to make money in this game and caravans are still worthwhile, at least if you get them in Vlandian towns. My first cavaran continues giving me 500-1000 denars daily since 100 days ago. I have not lost any caravan yet.
 
Molay said:
I know people keep saying caravans are broken, the game is ruined, toads are falling from the sky etc. But did you people even use the caravans? They're still profitable, particularly early and midgame when you're not involved in multiple wars. They do their thing for quite a while, on average earning money. There's been threads and intensive tests into it. Though admittedly those useful discussions keep getting buried by the whining...

The only inconvenience is setting them up every couple months and fetching your companion. Which could be made a bit easier; perhaps the companion could just come back to you a few days after losing the caravan and start a dialogue to invest in starting the caravan back up, so you don't have to do it manually again?
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That's a major inconvenience though and one that could've been avoided wholesale had they actually used the beta and alpha branches as they're supposed to be used. Also why would I chose the needlessly inconvenient and risky investment for making money, when I could just buy a workshop or invest in more units so I can beat larger parties and sell the loot?
 
The Leviathan said:
I'm not going to read more than the second paragraph, just going to point out that you missing the entire point of people complaining about the Caravan/Economy change, which is that these features were rolled into the stable patch branch without being properly tested in the beta/alpha brances first completely defeating the purpose of having alpha/beta branches in the first place.

Next time before resorting to the low IQ "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" kneejerk response to stifle any critique or criticism directed at the game, please try to actual understand the reason why the community is upset in the first place.
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That's the excuse but we all know people are raging because they can't make easy money within a few days anymore. Caravans were extremely unbalanced and literally just a free money machine

blackbellamy said:
Why are you posting reddit spam here with a post title that makes it sound like this is some kind of response but it's just reddit spam?
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How is this spam when it is very well thought out and also received much praise?
 
Caravans were unbalanced but so is everything else in the game lmao also again you're missing the point that people are upset because an untested, unbalanced, and annoying feature was added to the stable branch of patches without first being properly tested and adjusted in the Beta/Alpha branches. Its no different than why people are upset about the Combat AI downgrade from the latest stable patches. Conveniently glossing over that fact and saying "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" like this dumb reddit post you reposted just does a disservice to the actual reasons why people are complaining.
 
The Leviathan said:
Caravans were unbalanced but so is everything else in the game lmao also again you're missing the point that people are upset because an untested, unbalanced, and annoying feature was added to the stable branch of patches without first being properly tested and adjusted in the Beta/Alpha branches. Its no different than why people are upset about the Combat AI downgrade from the latest stable patches. Conveniently glossing over that fact and saying "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" like this dumb reddit post you reposted just does a disservice to the actual reasons why people are complaining.
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You're also missing the entire point of this post, only focusing on the first paragraph and refusing to read any of the actual criticism that follows
 
Why should our complaints be irrelevant?
If the balancing is not going in right direction, it should be pointed out early access or no?
I mean it is a balancing effort right? We are now telling them if their effort is working or not. Listen and adjust again as they will.
Yea some will sound like whining but so what? Take the information and see if it is useful and leave everything else behind.
 
hedition said:
Why should our complaints be irrelevant?
If the balancing is not going in right direction, it should be pointed out early access or no?
I mean it is a balancing effort right? We are now telling them if their effort is working or not. Listen and adjust again as they will.
Yea some will sound like whining but so what? Take the information and see if it is useful and leave everything else behind.
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It's perfectly fine to complain, as addressed multiple times in the post. There is a difference between constructive criticism and crying because your favorite exploit does not work anymore. See point number 4, a bunch of the posts I see on these forums has inspired me to post this because he makes a really good point about this
 
There we go again with 'It's early access' 'you're whining' 'you're complaining' 'you're raging' 'you're crying'.
If people express they dissatisfied then it mean the change is not good enough. Even an unthoughtful response is useful because it add up to the seriousness of positive/negative feedback of the change, and there are already tons of thoughtful advice from a lot of people that have times to explore the problem/write their feedback too.

Community that voice their opinion and feedback is the sign of community that's still alive, When they are silence, that's when you know everything is going downhill.
 
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Yesterday I started a new game on the newest beta patch with all the difficulties set to the hardest. I played for a few hours as a merchant not involved in any wars and I had two very profitable workshops: brewery at Jalmarys (300/day) and smithy at Epirocera or how-is-this-city-called (500/day). Atm workshops are a very, very good source of money if placed correctly. After a few hours of a really chilled gameplay I had 150 trade, 130 steward, 300k dinars, decent eq, 40 000 weight of goods, a lot of expensive war horses (I was buying war horses every time I saw a good prices) and over 1k of the regular daily profit (I had a small party of high tier troops, 2 workshops and 1 caravan). I have to say that it felt good. This early game was feeling very balanced and damn, I truly enjoyed it.
 
peenerz said:
It's perfectly fine to complain, as addressed multiple times in the post. There is a difference between constructive criticism and crying because your favorite exploit does not work anymore. See point number 4, a bunch of the posts I see on these forums has inspired me to post this because he makes a really good point about this
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Its unfortunate but this is a game. People will be complaining now, they will be complaining after its launched and until the day the game dies off. Go to warband forum the search through the posts at its peak and see if there are no complains.
Games devs know players complain a lot. Players know that too. But that does not mean they are irrelevant. Players are the ones that spend both time and money in the game and unlike those devs, players do not expect a salary in return for the efforts but satisfaction that they had great fun and experience spending an entire Sunday on it.
 
Nokturnel said:
Exactly.

Like personally I don't even give a damn about Caravans because I don't even use them, I make money just warmongering, but I also think they shouldn't be wasting their time trying to balance the early game economy when so much content in the game isn't even implemented yet. Priorities should be...

Gamebreaking bugs > Content > Minor Bugs > Is everything working? > Ok, now balance it

With the latest patches someone or maybe a team of people seems to be focused on trying to balance the early game economy when most of the features that will effect the economy aren't even in the game yet. If you balance the economy without those things existing, you're just going to have to rebalance it once they are. So don't waste your time. Work on something more useful.
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This, they should focus on adding more content before balancing the game. Who knows, maybe if the new content they add such as adjusting your caravan size, etc it could just balance the game without having the developers intervene and nerf something.
 
I keep saying it isn't about the money, it is about the money sinks. Why does it cost nothing to upgrade a city to level III everything? That isn't realistic. Instead it should cost like 1 million Denars to upgrade all the walls of a city, I mean that is a massive undertaking. What we need isn't tuning, rather we need content and more in depth systems like it costing money to upgrade our cities or random events like a city fire that requires us to donate funds to rebuild our city or face our city's infrastructure falling into ruin. How about having to spend money to repair the walls after you beat off an enemy army? How about having to spend money to import in grain to feed your staving city do to a drought? There are tons and tons of things that could/should be added to flesh out the game that doesn't require them to tune how much income you make. I mean we are SUPPOSED to have city management in this game but upgrades aren't management so why don't they add in the management aspects that should cost money.

Same goes for influence, there are tons of things that could be added as an influence sink. I mentioned using influence to "buy" your way into being one of the candidates up for vote on a new fief that came available. How about using influence on individual lords to get them to support an otherwise unpopular policy you would like passed. How about using your influence to get your ruler to declare war or negotiate peace? Again, just like with money, there are tons and tons of things that can and should be added to game to flesh these systems out that don't require changing the values.

Also lets face facts here. Taleworlds released the game as Early Access and even stated it is in an unfinished state. Hell they have already sold probably at least a million copies at $40+ dollars a copy. Shouldn't they be adding tons of new systems and other content to flesh out the game? I mean I hope the hell we aren't just going to see a few tweaks, changes and balancing between now and release and I am hoping most of what is in game as far as castle/city management and kingdom management is just a place holder.
 
Havada said:
Yesterday I started a new game on the newest beta patch with all the difficulties set to the hardest. I played for a few hours as a merchant not involved in any wars and I had two very profitable workshops: brewery at Jalmarys (300/day) and smithy at Epirocera or how-is-this-city-called (500/day). Atm workshops are a very, very good source of money if placed correctly. After a few hours of a really chilled gameplay I had 150 trade, 130 steward, 300k dinars, decent eq, 40 000 weight of goods, a lot of expensive war horses (I was buying war horses every time I saw a good prices) and over 1k of the regular daily profit (I had a small party of high tier troops, 2 workshops and 1 caravan). I have to say that it felt good. This early game was feeling very balanced and damn, I truly enjoyed it.
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Exactly, trading is quite profitable and actually requires engagement, having to choose what to sell etc, caravans were basically FREE money, and the nerf was much needed. The whole point of passive income is to partially or barely offset the cost of your party, which workshops do a very good job at doing.


hedition said:
Its unfortunate but this is a game. People will be complaining now, they will be complaining after its launched and until the day the game dies off. Go to warband forum the search through the posts at its peak and see if there are no complains.
Games devs know players complain a lot. Players know that too. But that does not mean they are irrelevant. Players are the ones that spend both time and money in the game and unlike those devs, players do not expect a salary in return for the efforts but satisfaction that they had great fun and experience spending an entire Sunday on it.
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True, but the matter of fact is what a vocal group of players wants isn't necessarily what is good for the game. Balance is just as important as new content, some people were sitting around with millions of denars in their pockets within a few hundred days and complained about having nothing to spend money on. Then in comes a fix to make it harder to get to that state early on and they lose their minds
 
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