A response to all the complaining about the recent economy changes

[hedition]

True, but the matter of fact is what a vocal group of players wants isn't necessarily what is good for the game. Balance is just as important as new content, some people were sitting around with millions of denars in their pockets within a few hundred days and complained about having nothing to spend money on. Then in comes a fix to make it harder to get to that state early on and they lose their minds

It has to be up to the devs to decide what information is useful and what is not. Its like panning for gold. But devs decision are not always the best either. It is hard to quantify these stuff. Which opinions actually reflect those of the majority and which dev decisions actually were the best they could have chosen and would it be worse had they done otherwise? The only worst thing a game dev can do is never listen to players at all, deciding that players are all entitled and never really know what is best for them.

Right now there is a problem with money making early and end game. Players take longer to amass a fortune to get to midgame, making it feel like actually working for salary paid in denars, while still end up swimming in money end game. There are stages of the game where it is significantly less enjoyable. Players can post here to give suggestions if they want, in a form of mature advice or whining baby whichever they prefer. I am sure there are something devs can take away from and refine their ideas with it.

EDIT: also note that in this EA there will be a fair amount of restarting a new game. I personally have spent more than half of game hours as a travelling merchant amassing wealth to various degree at various game versions. It is indeed getting tiring for me as well and getting longer to achieve as the play time gets longer. I just started a new game cos my previous game could not proceed with my marriage without crashing so I am expecting to spend my Saturday doing the whole merchant thing again.

 

[ppc]

...

True, but the matter of fact is what a vocal group of players wants isn't necessarily what is good for the game. Balance is just as important as new content, some people were sitting around with millions of denars in their pockets within a few hundred days and complained about having nothing to spend money on. Then in comes a fix to make it harder to get to that state early on and they lose their minds

Nonsense. If this were closer to feature-complete and release I agree. However, as it stands the game is a shell with a LOT of missing content (that we know exists in some form). Who cares about endless economy changes in EA, we need broken features so we can help the developers implement and fix them.

 

[The Leviathan]

Making it harder to get to that state where money doesn't matter doesn't change the fact that you'll easily and inevitably get to that point anyway because of how fundamentally broken selling loot is and because there are no actual money sinks in the game. Balance is important but again they should test out properly balancing these mechanics in alpha and beta branch (you know the reason why these branches exist in the first place) instead of halfheartedly rolling them out stable patch branch at the last second. Which again brings us back to my original point.

 

[BattanianDruid]

That's the excuse but we all know people are raging because they can't make easy money within a few days anymore. Caravans were extremely unbalanced and literally just a free money machine

This is a strawman argument and it completely invalidates your entire post. You're not trying to see things from the other side's point of view. You're dismissing them out-of-hand by labeling them as whining and telling them to stop giving feedback because you disagree with the feedback they are giving.

Everyone playing Early Access should feel free and be encouraged to share their thoughts and opinions on the matter, and while I don't condone the people who are insulting the developers by insinuating they are incompetent I also don't condone lumping in everyone who disagrees with the change with those people either.

Especially since even now there are a bunch of users on both sides of the argument working with Mexxico to provide data to better build an ideal caravan system. Posts like these that boil down to "shut up" aren't any more constructive than the ones accusing the devs of incompetence.

 

[durbal]

If the game had an "I WIN" button as some kind of early build placeholder for testing and it was removed you'd absolutely see people on this forum complaining about it. "bUt iTs SaNdboX Y u TeLl me hOw 2 plAy"

 

[BattanianDruid]

If the game had an "I WIN" button as some kind of early build placeholder for testing and it was removed you'd absolutely see people on this forum complaining about it. "bUt iTs SaNdboX Y u TeLl me hOw 2 plAy"

Kind of an exaggeration. People like to play the game to play the game. Wanting an easier economy so you can focus on the warfare side of things is not the same as wanting a button that you press to end the game with an instant victory.

I also don't remember many people complaining when the woodshops were fixed and no longer yielded 10K+ a day because that was clearly and obviously a massive exploit that did trivialize the early game. I personally refused to use woodshops until it was fixed for that reason.

 

[durbal]

Kind of an exaggeration.

Is it though? There is another thread here that has people up in arms that looters now kill their units due to a bug fix. Many want the bug back so that they can spam autoresolve vs. looters. (And I agree that autoresolve is broken, but the idea that a bug should remain in the game because people actually went around pressing autoresolve vs. looters enough to complain is -- as someone else put it -- demented.)

 

[BattanianDruid]

Is it though? There is another thread here that has people up in arms that looters now kill their units due to a bug fix. Many want the bug back so that they can spam autoresolve vs. looters. (And I agree that autoresolve is broken, but the idea that a bug should remain in the game because people actually went around pressing autoresolve vs. looters enough to complain is -- as someone else put it -- demented.)

To be fair, auto-resolve does need to be fixed up. I had an army of 120 mostly mid-tier to elite troops fight a band of 13 looters and I lost six men.

That is both me using it for the intended purpose (skipping trivial, boring fights) and getting bullcrap results.

 

[Gambles]

> Post positive game dev review on Reddit
> Immediately get all the up doots
> Salivate at internet fame
> Copy paste to forums
> Get pooped on with logic
> Cry

 

[Bob Gnarly]

If people simply want to breeze through the early game, could they not drop the difficulty or just cheat?

The caravan nerf seems like such minor issue to be causing this much drama.

 

[radiant9000]

If people simply want to breeze through the early game, could they not drop the difficulty or just cheat?

The caravan nerf seems like such minor issue to be causing this much drama.

I think people are upset because the developers are focusing on the wrong things. They are trying to balance an incomplete feature so it doesnt make sense. Nerfing the caravan only delays players getting super rich, but the problem is that the player will still reach that point with relative ease eventually. There are much bigger issues than balancing caravans imo.

 

[BattanianDruid]

If people simply want to breeze through the early game, could they not drop the difficulty or just cheat?

The caravan nerf seems like such minor issue to be causing this much drama.

The difficulty doesn't really change the time needed to reach economic stability. It also trivializes combat, which is what a lot of people play the game for.

People aren't mad they can't make oodles of cash anymore. They still can. It is about caravans going from an early game goal and bump from early game to mid-game to a gamble that may financially ruin you, prolonging the early game further based purely on a stroke of bad luck.

Now I just save up and buy shops to achieve the same thing I used to achieve with a caravan. But that means I'll probably never bother making a caravan again as once I hit mid-game I don't need the small income caravans yield and they are too much of a risk for my taste in the early game.

Basically I just don't like to gamble with pure chance and that is basically what current caravans are. A roll of the dice. Some people like to gamble. Others don't. Hence the differing opinions.

Plus what Radiant said. This fix didn't actually do much to stop massive income late game which left many wondering why it was touched at all.

 

[armovir2009]

That's the excuse but we all know people are raging because they can't make easy money within a few days anymore. Caravans were extremely unbalanced and literally just a free money machine


How is this spam when it is very well thought out and also received much praise?

I think that there are ones like me who is totally frustrated when you need to do repeatedly grinding stuff like fighting lords or bandits for making money in the currently state of the game. My point is that you add new interesting randomized possabilities to make money first, then nerf the existing OP one. For example variety of quests, micromanagement, improvements, random encounters etc. I guess it my turn to say: Hey its EA, so we need money to test features unless you have broght new bright shiny mechanic that is not dull and boring as war/tournament/raiding right now repeat x 100 times to make your groches for doing the same thing another 100 times.

 

[Bob Gnarly]

I think people are upset because the developers are focusing on the wrong things. They are trying to balance an incomplete feature so it doesnt make sense. Nerfing the caravan only delays players getting super rich, but the problem is that the player will still reach that point with relative ease eventually. There are much bigger issues than balancing caravans imo.

The difficulty doesn't really change the time needed to reach economic stability. It also trivializes combat, which is what a lot of people play the game for.

People aren't mad they can't make oodles of cash anymore. They still can. It is about caravans going from an early game goal and bump from early game to mid-game to a gamble that may financially ruin you, prolonging the early game further based purely on a stroke of bad luck.

Now I just save up and buy shops to achieve the same thing I used to achieve with a caravan. But that means I'll probably never bother making a caravan again as once I hit mid-game I don't need the small income caravans yield and they are too much of a risk for my taste in the early game.

Basically I just don't like to gamble with pure chance and that is basically what current caravans are. A roll of the dice. Some people like to gamble. Others don't. Hence the differing opinions.

Plus what Radiant said. This fix didn't actually do much to stop massive income late game which left many wondering why it was touched at all.

Fair points, I'm well into end game now so haven't experienced the new early game denar grind.

The economy is definitely a mess right now and personally I'd like to see some improvements, but I can understand there are bigger fish to fry this early in development. In saying that, I'd assume they would have people working on different aspects of the game, bug fixes, optimisation, balancing, etc, etc, so maybe it can be worked on in conjunction with everything else. Then again, I know next to nothing when it comes to game development.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Good thing you got their permission to re-post this here. You wanna go scoop my **** out of my toilet and take it home while you're at it?
Most people are mad that they wasted time on something that doesn't finish the game, add something good , or make it not lag/crash.
Make threads about your own concerns about development please, don't make threads about your concern about other people's concerns concerning concerns.

CONCERNS

 

[BattanianDruid]

Fair points, I'm well into end game now so haven't experienced the new early game denar grind.

The economy is definitely a mess right now and personally I'd like to see some improvements, but I can understand there are bigger fish to fry this early in development. In saying that, I'd assume they would have people working on different aspects of the game, bug fixes, optimisation, balancing, etc, etc, so maybe it can be worked on in conjunction with everything else. Then again, I know next to nothing when it comes to game development.

Oh yah. There are definitely different teams working on different things. Mexxico has even said they work on economy stuff and have nothing to do with bugs, crashes, or any other facet of the game. Playing with the caravans isn't stopping them from developing the skill system more, for example.

It just seems like an odd thing to work on at this stage as it wasn't exactly game breaking or anything. Maybe it was seen as low hanging fruit.

My concern really is just not liking the RNG of it all. I probably won't use caravans until we're given more ways to engage with them to lessen our risk.

 

[Casseius]

Do you know what is free money? Smithing, i can make 5 million in 5 day anytime, and you all /cry about 1000 profit a day? Seriously just lol.

 

[Ggoddkkiller]

The amount of childish complaining about the recent economy changes is really ridiculous as farming gold is so absurdly easy that you can become the richest man in the world within just 2-3 hours!! While in Warband there was always a struggle from the start to pretty much end game so ofc gold gain will be nerfed over and over again until it becomes challenging a little bit...

 

[peenerz]

> Post positive game dev review on Reddit
> Immediately get all the up doots
> Salivate at internet fame
> Copy paste to forums
> Get pooped on with logic
> Cry

You mean start a salt mining company cause of how salty yall are for getting called out? The amount of people here trying to find as much ways to attack this off topic is actually sort of comical, literally just proves that nobody has an argument for their whining

The amount of childish complaining about the recent economy changes is really ridiculous as farming gold is so absurdly easy that you can become the richest man in the world within just 2-3 hours!! While in Warband there was always a struggle from the start to pretty much end game so ofc gold gain will be nerfed over and over again until it becomes challenging a little bit...

Literally this, trading is engaging and gives you a decent amount of money in return. Caravans were literally a "press a few buttons for instamoney every day" but I guess people just want everything handed out to them

Making it harder to get to that state where money doesn't matter doesn't change the fact that you'll easily and inevitably get to that point anyway because of how fundamentally broken selling loot is and because there are no actual money sinks in the game. Balance is important but again they should test out properly balancing these mechanics in alpha and beta branch (you know the reason why these branches exist in the first place) instead of halfheartedly rolling them out stable patch branch at the last second. Which again brings us back to my original point.

Why even play the game then if you're inevitably going to win anyways? The whole point of balancing is to make it more engaging and challenging to get to the end game. You can have both money sinks for late game and nerf caravans for early game, I don't see a problem with that

I think people are upset because the developers are focusing on the wrong things. They are trying to balance an incomplete feature so it doesnt make sense. Nerfing the caravan only delays players getting super rich, but the problem is that the player will still reach that point with relative ease eventually. There are much bigger issues than balancing caravans imo.

People also forget that Taleworlds is not 1 person and there are multiple devs working on multiple things at once. One person may be working on the perks right now, trying to find a way to rebalance them. Someone else may be making more scenes. Are you saying that you cannot release a balance patch before these other guys finish their work which may take way longer?

 

[Nokturnel]

Why even play the game then if you're inevitably going to win anyways? The whole point of balancing is to make it more engaging and challenging to get to the end game. You can have both money sinks for late game and nerf caravans for early game, I don't see a problem with that

Because balancing the economy at this point in time is a giant waste of time without the currently bare bones features fleshed out.

People also forget that Taleworlds is not 1 person and there are multiple devs working on multiple things at once. One person may be working on the perks right now, trying to find a way to rebalance them. Someone else may be making more scenes. Are you saying that you cannot release a balance patch before these other guys finish their work which may take way longer?

No one is saying the entire team is working on this, but whoever is working on the economy is wasting their time. Get everything working first, then balance the game. Working on the economy at this point in time makes no sense when every feature that will effect the economy doesn't even exist yet. The same skillset needed to adjust the numbers for the Economy could be put to good use elsewhere, like fixing Fiefs so prosperity doesn't make everyone starve and Food Storage is much bigger as well as Sieges not instantly causeing Fiefs to starve.