A long existing upgrade flaw!

[Woody]

I think it is a good system as it is but I do support having to pay to upgrade them based on the increased pay rate.  Even if you simply give them one extra pay it would make it a more momentous occasion.  I don't think there would be any problem with being upset when they upgrade because you can always choose to leave them at whatever tier they are at.  Basically they are maintaining their own gear from the loot and they weekly pay but perhaps one extra paycheck as they go up will make it slightly harder, or at least make you think about timing a little more.  It's only a small change and really, thats all thats needed.

 

[astat]

Whenever your troops upgrade, they receive a lot of new good and costly items. How where they able to buy them?

Ever wondered where all the decent loot goes after a battle?

Hehe thats a good one. 

that's not a "good one", it's the actual point that makes this suggestion unnecessary.


i often see ppl whining about how there was "not enough loot"... and, less often, suggesting that troop upgrades shouldnt be for free.
both complaints neutralize each other if you just think through it.

you really think these guys do all the fighting for you for, like, 10 denars a week? 
you don't control a proper army, you lead a band of mercenaries and soldiers of fortune. they all loot fallen enemies and comrades, not just you. that's why peasants upgrade to militia after their first skirmish. they get their stuff from the battlefield. at least i don't see my troops wandering off to the next town in order to buy some nice stuff before they are ready for an upgrade.

 

[Zantalos]

Oh god, this does not seem very fun at all. No offense, but if this were added to Mount and Blade I might just have to stop playing. 8000 per knight? I barely have enough to equip my heroes. I'm sorry but some people, believe it or not, do have a life that does not revolve around hours and hours of playing mount and blade, and this would be extremely annoying for those players.

 

[Nikola]

this is a terrable idea, where would we get the money from, and the knights are stupid as it is and if you are gonna add this atleast make there be a easy medium and hard system. if you add this persons idea to the game it will turn off new players from the game

 

[Triosta]

The loot is fine, except for the vanishing coats of plates when you kill swadian knights. The real problem is the worth of equipment. As soon as you sell a mail hauberk to a shop for 100 gold, they re-sell it for 1000 gold. What's up with that? Armor is precious and should be worth more. A lot more.

 

[MeestYk]

This idea seems worth trying to put it to work, but there are underlying problems ahead.

Balance.  It would totally change everything.  All the prices/values of things would have to be changed.  This could create an enormous pressure on the economy.  As is, forget it.
Costs.  It would be huge and at the rate of how we can gain from pillaging to raids and so on, impossible to keep up costs.

You were emphasizing on knights alone, which would already kill us if we had many in our party.  Let alone all the other units to upgrade at our own costs.  As a result,  much fewer units in our party if such idea is put into play.  Which also means that all NPC troops (bandits/raiders/enemy troops) would also have to be in balance (lesser troops) or we would get screwed at every battles.

Realistically it should be so and to implement this would be quite a task. It's not impossible to make this happen, but it would take a lot of time and effort.

This is another example of how unrealistic M&B is at this point and you're right.

 

[Moss]

This is already covered.

Every single person in your party gets a share of the loot. That means that each soldier gets a certain amount of the denars you loot off of a defeated enemy, as well as a certain amount of the items salvaged. That's why defeating tiny armies with a big force gives you very little loot, whilst soloing them gives you more.

It's been around since v0.2-ish.

It's not exactly the same, but I think it's a good feature that nicely covers the origins of the "extra equipment", without overcomplicating the game.

 

[Gigillicious]

I think this post has been B7.

 

[Aljola]

It's not a flaw.  Their government is supplying that gear at each upgrade. 

 

[Havoc134]

It's not a flaw.  Their government is supplying that gear at each upgrade. 

what about when you have a company of mercs?

 

[Master OF Swords]

Knights would buy their own armour... they were nobles, it's not like they had a modest amount of cash, some probably did but still enough to buy armour, weapons and a horse for themselves. The weekly wage could be raised though!

 

[Capt Dragon]

  well this has some balance flaws but a basic GOOD idea  yes .... on having to "upgrade" any "Knight" lvl troop in a town or castle, what they did that back then anyways, BUT the cost is far too high at 7000.  I am tired of winning a fight against 10-15 top troops, 15-20 mid lvl and a horde of low lvl ONLY to get weak weapons and armor NO high lvl gear  if you KILL 40 or more and wound 10-20 and capture the wounded  WHO carries off the weapons and gear?? so you have nothing to show for it????? their (enemy lords) all have high lvl gear BUT rarely does ir drop even if you kill 95% and capture the rest  FIX that first and you will have a stronger argument for something approaching 7000.
    AND in the old days when you were made a Knight (or other highest lvl) the Lord was to grant "Boons and Spurs" so it was a shared cost often the Boon was a Battle trained Charger or a weapon or one piece of Armor to a full suit. and usually included training in Fiefdom management and further combat skills
    You could put a 2 to 5 day stay (loss of use in your group could be shown as a wounded is 23/25) at any Castle/Town-Castle when you make an upgrade to "accomodate" the training as well as have the troop cost for training be a reasonable amount before the increased wage same as the weekly wage on top of what you already pay for the few days training. such as 25 X 2 per each day in training a cost for troop and a trainer
    and as for LOOT drop it should be at LEAST one item per dead guy of best or better quality and appropriate for each troop ie: Knights drop high quality stuff .. millitia drop low lvl stuff ... captured guys give up money no gear  since if you "convert/recruit them it would be on them anyway  if you recruit them they get their money back as well as a wage ... or why would they even think to join??  and that choice should be given at time of capture (another menu window)   rescued prisoners  would still be added without a choice .. they should just be thankful you had room to take them outta the hands of the bad guys .. yes?
    lastly the cost for gear vs. the price to sell captured gear is WAY out of kilter  if it costs 4000 for good armor you OUGHT to get at least half that price (allowing the merchant will expect to have costs to repair/polish it up.  that said a 1/10 to 1/5 ration is extremely low .... again fix this imbalance and you have more substance for the higher up-grade costs BUT 7000 is still too high  a figure between 300 and 600 or so depending on the troop kind  is reasonable IMO  that would account for 20+ per day cost plus a contribution towards better gear per troop.
      and perhaps it could be mod-ed ?  where you could add it , or not, to your present game  thanks

 

[Solefald]

When it comes to micromanaging heroes, there was a mod i tried for 0.903 version, that heroes could automaticly upgrade their gear if you pressed the button.

I could be a option to completely manage the heroes, or after a fight, the hero would ask you if he could take a certain item that would increase his efficiancy in combat.

Or at loot menu, you could choose to let heroes take what equipment they want from the battlefield.

 

[Demonic Spoon]

Keep in mind that your troops take part of the loot after every battle, not to mention the flat denars. I'd imagine that helps pay for stuff.

 

[Zire1022]

now i bet this has already been said but im not going to read though 7 pages+ of this tread. and that is i think they get there upgraded weapons from there weekly pay.

 

[MercuryFMJ]

You could put a 2 to 5 day stay (loss of use in your group could be shown as a wounded is 23/25) at any Castle/Town-Castle when you make an upgrade to "accomodate" the training as well as have the troop cost for training be a reasonable amount before the increased wage same as the weekly wage on top of what you already pay for the few days training. such as 25 X 2 per each day in training a cost for troop and a trainer

That wouldn't make sense; they've already gained all the required skills through being trained and fighting battles, that's why you can upgrade them. They don't need to be trained again.

AND in the old days when you were made a Knight (or other highest lvl) the Lord was to grant "Boons and Spurs" so it was a shared cost often the Boon was a Battle trained Charger or a weapon or one piece of Armor to a full suit. and usually included training in Fiefdom management and further combat skills

In the old days Knights were wealthy high-born pansies that had good equipment cause they were rich and sucked up to their Lord. In Calradia they're just elite soldiers (any militiaman can be trained into a knight), and they only resemble historical Knights as far as their equipment. Historical facts don't mean anything here.

 

[Capt Dragon]

You could put a 2 to 5 day stay (loss of use in your group could be shown as a wounded is 23/25) at any Castle/Town-Castle when you make an upgrade to "accommodate" the training as well as have the troop cost for training be a reasonable amount before the increased wage same as the weekly wage on top of what you already pay for the few days training. such as 25 X 2 per each day in training a cost for troop and a trainer

That wouldn't make sense; they've already gained all the required skills through being trained and fighting battles, that's why you can upgrade them. They don't need to be trained again.

AND in the old days when you were made a Knight (or other highest lvl) the Lord was to grant "Boons and Spurs" so it was a shared cost often the Boon was a Battle trained Charger or a weapon or one piece of Armor to a full suit. and usually included training in Fiefdom management and further combat skills

In the old days Knights were wealthy high-born pansies that had good equipment cause they were rich and sucked up to their Lord. In Calradia they're just elite soldiers (any militiaman can be trained into a knight), and they only resemble historical Knights as far as their equipment. Historical facts don't mean anything here.

    well you are proof that ignorance is bliss .... you show clearly that you know squat about Knights and their conditions/abilities in history. shut up  go read some ledgers and/or records of Castle upkeep or the diaries of the clerk/scribes that kept them. you could start with the Library of Congress or Smithstoni an in the US or there are many Museums in Europe that make them available to the public
    and the guy asked for info on historical reference on the fief economy and the relationships that were involved with granting land for service etc  sheesh  people like you that act or pontificate that they "know" something and in reality know squat are a constant source of sad amusement for me 
      and as for them being pansies, high born or low born , you'd not be able to qualify to hold their jolly-buckets  sheesh  you'd die from stress the first day  ha  they're pansies  I'd pay good money (or bad money) to see you say that to their face         

 

[MercuryFMJ]

    well you are proof that ignorance is bliss .... you show clearly that you know squat about Knights and their conditions/abilities in history. shut up  go read some ledgers and/or records of Castle upkeep or the diaries of the clerk/scribes that kept them. you could start with the Library of Congress or Smithstoni an in the US or there are many Museums in Europe that make them available to the public     

You are not helping here... You tell me I am wrong, but you don't tell me what I am wrong about. You are not shedding any light or helping discussion at all- either start posting actual information (you can start by telling me what I'm so wrong about), or find somewhere else to insult people for no reason.

    and the guy asked for info on historical reference on the fief economy and the relationships that were involved with granting land for service etc

You don't understand my post. What I was saying is that in-game knights are just elite soldiers- any and every one of your recruits can be trained into Knights. The social implications of knighthood don't exist in-game, and there is no dialogue to suggest that it does, so there's no reason for any of this to be in Native M&B. I'm saying that those subjects (fief economy, land for service etc.) are irrelevant to M&B, and belong in the History forum.

      and as for them being pansies, high born or low born , you'd not be able to qualify to hold their jolly-buckets  sheesh  you'd die from stress the first day  ha  they're pansies  I'd pay good money (or bad money) to see you say that to their face         

Calm down, I jest, I jest... I don't really think all of them were pansies, but the vast majority of them were from the "priviledged" levels of society- the prerequisites for knighthood being a rather social thing. Some of them would've been good warriors, and no doubt some got the position purely because of high birth, but in any case they all had special treatment over the other soldiers. It'd take a hell of a lot more balls to be one of poor, dirty infantrymen than to be a prestigious Knight with all the best gear. That's what I mean.

 

[MeestYk]

    well you are proof that ignorance is bliss .... you show clearly that you know squat about Knights and their conditions/abilities in history. shut up  go read some ledgers and/or records of Castle upkeep or the diaries of the clerk/scribes that kept them. you could start with the Library of Congress or Smithstoni an in the US or there are many Museums in Europe that make them available to the public     

You are not helping here... You tell me I am wrong, but you don't tell me what I am wrong about. You are not shedding any light or helping discussion at all- either start posting actual information (you can start by telling me what I'm so wrong about), or find somewhere else to insult people for no reason.

    and the guy asked for info on historical reference on the fief economy and the relationships that were involved with granting land for service etc

You don't understand my post. What I was saying is that in-game knights are just elite soldiers- any and every one of your recruits can be trained into Knights. The social implications of knighthood don't exist in-game, and there is no dialogue to suggest that it does, so there's no reason for any of this to be in Native M&B. I'm saying that those subjects (fief economy, land for service etc.) are irrelevant to M&B, and belong in the History forum.

No, it doesn't.  If someone has good knowledge of the period and show good etiquette in sharing it with all of us in this forum I don't see why not.  You're not in any position to tell a knowledgeable person to refrain the way you do.  In fact, what he said has everything to do with MnB.  MnB reflects the time and the implications of Knighthood and the likes.
Just because they don't exist in game doesn't necessarily mean it's not for further discussion because you say so.  The game aims for that actually.

 

[MercuryFMJ]

No, it doesn't.  If someone has good knowledge of the period and show good etiquette in sharing it with all of us in this forum I don't see why not.  You're not in any position to tell a knowledgeable person to refrain the way you do.  In fact, what he said has everything to do with MnB.  MnB reflects the time and the implications of Knighthood and the likes.
Just because they don't exist in game doesn't necessarily mean it's not for further discussion because you say so.  The game aims for that actually.

I didn't say it shouldn't be discussed, I said that changing the way that Knights are upgraded in-game wouldn't make any sense, unless you also changed basically everything else about the way Knights work to the same standard. If someone wants to do that then that's cool, but this thread isn't about that, it's about the way soldiers are upgraded. If you just want to talk about historical Knights in general then knock yourself out, I'm just sharing my opinion about the topic of this thread.

Also, history forum.