.800 Tutorial

[HTAPAWASO]

The new tutorial is really great, but there were a few issues I had.

1. When I picked up the javelins for the ranged tutorial, they didn't automatically appear in my hands, I had to scroll to them (unlike all the other tutorial weapons).
This should be changed, and the player should be told how to switch weapons in the opening dialogue.

2. In the second riding tutorial, it says to strike each destructible target with the yellow arrow on top... but in actual fact you have to strike the archery targets to continue!
Took me a while to work this out, obviously a bug.

3. I couldn't finish the Horse Archer tutorial at all, wouldn't advance me no matter what I shot and how many times I shot it.

4. Few typos/incomplete dialogues (when you finish the foot attacking tutorial, the first horse trainer dialogue as examples).

5. Objects on the table for the ranged tutorial are reasonably difficult to pick up, you have to be in just the right position... not a huge deal, but could be made slightly easier I'm sure.

6. No Riposte tutorial!


EDIT: One more thing I forgot to mention.

In the blocking tutorial, he says he'll wait 'til I assume the right block before attacking... he doesn't. At least not always. I was hit the first time I missed a block.

 

[SockMonkeh]

The keys in the tutorial text should reflect the keys you have chosen in your options!

 

[Scorch!]

Definately confirmed for all of these.

 

[Ograv]

Just want to say I like the tutorial. If you could toggle invulnerability, and remove the knockdown from the practice-swords, sparring would be a great way to practice manual blocking and/or chamberblocking.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Confirm/agree on all of these.

5. Objects on the table for the ranged tutorial are reasonably difficult to pick up, you have to be in just the right position... not a huge deal, but could be made slightly easier I'm sure.

It's important for new players I think, and for first impressions!

6. No Riposte tutorial!

Yes, this is badly needed I think. Could be as simple as disabling block and armouring the player, or more detailed, with on-screen cues like the other combat tutorials.

I'd still like to see some discussion (or at least mention) of other tactics as well - feinting, kicking, preemptive attacks, counters, use of distance, evasion, etc. A lot of new players seem hung up on blocking.

In the blocking tutorial, he says he'll wait 'til I assume the right block before attacking... he doesn't. At least not always. I was hit the first time I missed a block.

I feel like this happened to me as well, but haven't replicated it yet. I know the thrust attack often lands, because he (like all bots) face-hugs and releases the attack immediately after you tell it to block, so his thrust gets in first.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

Confirm/agree on all of these.

5. Objects on the table for the ranged tutorial are reasonably difficult to pick up, you have to be in just the right position... not a huge deal, but could be made slightly easier I'm sure.

It's important for new players I think, and for first impressions!

6. No Riposte tutorial!

Yes, this is badly needed I think. Could be as simple as disabling block and armouring the player, or more detailed, with on-screen cues like the other combat tutorials.

I'd still like to see some discussion (or at least mention) of other tactics as well - feinting, kicking, preemptive attacks, counters, use of distance, evasion, etc. A lot of new players seem hung up on blocking.

In the blocking tutorial, he says he'll wait 'til I assume the right block before attacking... he doesn't. At least not always. I was hit the first time I missed a block.

I feel like this happened to me as well, but haven't replicated it yet. I know the thrust attack often lands, because he (like all bots) face-hugs and releases the attack immediately after you tell it to block, so his thrust gets in first.

Was a side-swing that hit me, and it was the very first attack he did.

But yeah, insta-stabs are very noticeable fighting the AI, especially the 2h swordsman. Good thing the do no damage at least.

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I tested out the tutorial and found it to be excellent.  Good work devs   I suppose it could be tweaked a little more, but its a pretty solid tutorial for new players.  But maybe there could be a part 2 where you are taught about melee combat off horseback (including couching), commanding AI troops, and getting into a little actual combat (sort of like the old tutorial).

 

[Sushiman70]

When you're sparring with the dude with a staff, you just get spear-spammed. It's not very newb friendly.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

When you're sparring with the dude with a staff, you just get spear-spammed. It's not very newb friendly.

The fighters are pretty quick.

Maybe there could be difficulty levels, each one having higher proficiency than the one before.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Yeah. I think the first fight players have should be easy - one that they're pretty certain to win.

 

[glustrod]

I would also like to see different AI behaviour. Right now they are all face-huggers, regardless of the weapon. Would be cool if some AIs could use the advantage of weapons with more reach, i.e. keep distance. Or some are more defensive (do more blocking) and others more offensive. This is true for MP and SP as well.

Riposte tutorial is definetely needed.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

Yeah. I think the first fight players have should be easy - one that they're pretty certain to win.

I don't think it should be a matter of progression - otherwise experienced players who want to try something out or whatever will have to go through all the fighters to get to the one they want.

Just make it like it is now, but give each fighter all 3 weapon types (you can choose which to fight) and have them say their difficulty level in the dialogue.

Or if that's too complex, have 3 easy fighters (one weapon each) and the 3 current fighters (one weapon each), distinct by tunic colour and dialogue.

 

[gavin]

After the training ends, I think we should be able to continue free training by ourselves like the melee fight. I mean, we can fight again and again in the melee section but once we hit all the targets in lancing or archery, it just ends like that.

 

[Vornne]

I like the speed as it is now with the fastest combat speed for practicing, and thought that setting the speed to slowest would be slow enough for new players; but I just tested it and slowest still seems pretty fast. Probably the slowest and slower settings should be adjusted to be much slower than they are?

Gavin: I made a suggestion on the bug tracker that a table or rack be added to the tutorial with all the other types of practice weapon on it - two handed sword, lance, shield, javelin, bow, crossbow; you start with the one handed sword, staff, and horse already. Would that fulfill your request?

 

[HTAPAWASO]

I like the speed as it is now with the fastest combat speed for practicing, and thought that setting the speed to slowest would be slow enough for new players; but I just tested it and slowest still seems pretty fast. Probably the slowest and slower settings should be adjusted to be much slower than they are?

Gavin: I made a suggestion on the bug tracker that a table or rack be added to the tutorial with all the other types of practice weapon on it - two handed sword, lance, shield, javelin, bow, crossbow; you start with the one handed sword, staff, and horse already. Would that fulfill your request?

Two points.

1. As you yourself point out, that option doesn't make that much difference. It's still on the quick side on the slowest setting, especially if you just want to test something or are completely new to the game.

2. It slows down your speeds as well, so all it really does is increase the timing interval, not give your character any inherrent advantage. While this does help, I think having an AI with inferior stats to the player would be more helpful.

 

[gavin]

Gavin: I made a suggestion on the bug tracker that a table or rack be added to the tutorial with all the other types of practice weapon on it - two handed sword, lance, shield, javelin, bow, crossbow; you start with the one handed sword, staff, and horse already. Would that fulfill your request?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[Reapy]

In late here, but just pretty much backing up what everyone said.

As a priority I would try to figure out how to get the key presses to be replacable with what you have selected in the config option. I changed my pick up key to r , so when it says use F to pick it up, it is incorrect (as an aside if you change your movement keys you really F yourself during scene editing too )

I would also agree with the sentiments about fight training. There are 4 fights, would be great to have 4 levels of bot behavior. Agree with giving them alll different colors ( and maybe even armor depending how hard they are ).

I would like to see bots with the following Sparing behavior (ie leave the excellent block/attack direction thing in):

1. Easy bot = Basically clubman speed from original tutorial. Only 3 directions to block. Maybe not blunt for this fight though because knock downs take away your ability to practice blocking while you are getting up.

2. Med bot = The second guy upstairs in the original tutorial. Swings a little bit faster then clubman, and has 4 directions and a slightly longer weapon.

3. Harder bot = The current guy now. He comes at you fast with 4 directions and swings as fast as possible non stop.

4. Attack spam bot = Ok this guy is tricky, if possible (man I wish we could play with the bot ai ) behave thus:

....When the bot can take an action, choose one of the following actions:
* Swing <random direction>  ( a swing being like left click, chamber and attack as fast as possible)
* Chamber <random direction> for <random time between 0 to 1.5 sec ) (this is a feint, basically bot will put sword back, then wait x amount of time. At that point it will perform another random action from the list)
* Swing <random direction> for <random time between 0 and .3 sec> into manual block <random direction>  (this is a swing feint, bot swings, pulls it back (either near front of swing or a second into it) and then moves into a sort of feint with the manual block.
* Block <random direction>  (just a fast move to the full block animation then is quickly choosing another)


So the kind of behavior you might see would be like
- chamber right for 0 sec (bot brings arms to right)
- chamber thrust for .5 sec (bot moves to a held thrust)
- block left (cancels out of thrust to left block animation then immediatly into)
- swing right
- swing right
- swing right
- swing left for .1 canceled to thrust block
- chamber overhead 1.5 sec
- swing overhead (might end up as a double pump not sure)
- chamber left for .5 sec
- chamber left for 0 sec
- swing right

So you get the point here, basically you have a bot that is keeping his weapon moving randomly. A bot like this would be easy to attack and kill since it might get stuck being kind of spammy, but would be hugely awesome for blocking practice.

I guess at the very least maybe the last guy should at least feint you and attack quickly. But yeah, having 4 fighters there is prime time for having escalating difficulty in fights.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

In late here, but just pretty much backing up what everyone said.

As a priority I would try to figure out how to get the key presses to be replacable with what you have selected in the config option. I changed my pick up key to r , so when it says use F to pick it up, it is incorrect (as an aside if you change your movement keys you really F yourself during scene editing too )

I would also agree with the sentiments about fight training. There are 4 fights, would be great to have 4 levels of bot behavior. Agree with giving them alll different colors ( and maybe even armor depending how hard they are ).

I would like to see bots with the following Sparing behavior (ie leave the excellent block/attack direction thing in):

1. Easy bot = Basically clubman speed from original tutorial. Only 3 directions to block. Maybe not blunt for this fight though because knock downs take away your ability to practice blocking while you are getting up.

2. Med bot = The second guy upstairs in the original tutorial. Swings a little bit faster then clubman, and has 4 directions and a slightly longer weapon.

3. Harder bot = The current guy now. He comes at you fast with 4 directions and swings as fast as possible non stop.

4. Attack spam bot = Ok this guy is tricky, if possible (man I wish we could play with the bot ai ) behave thus:

....When the bot can take an action, choose one of the following actions:
* Swing <random direction>  ( a swing being like left click, chamber and attack as fast as possible)
* Chamber <random direction> for <random time between 0 to 1.5 sec ) (this is a feint, basically bot will put sword back, then wait x amount of time. At that point it will perform another random action from the list)
* Swing <random direction> for <random time between 0 and .3 sec> into manual block <random direction>  (this is a swing feint, bot swings, pulls it back (either near front of swing or a second into it) and then moves into a sort of feint with the manual block.
* Block <random direction>  (just a fast move to the full block animation then is quickly choosing another)


So the kind of behavior you might see would be like
- chamber right for 0 sec (bot brings arms to right)
- chamber thrust for .5 sec (bot moves to a held thrust)
- block left (cancels out of thrust to left block animation then immediatly into)
- swing right
- swing right
- swing right
- swing left for .1 canceled to thrust block
- chamber overhead 1.5 sec
- swing overhead (might end up as a double pump not sure)
- chamber left for .5 sec
- chamber left for 0 sec
- swing right

So you get the point here, basically you have a bot that is keeping his weapon moving randomly. A bot like this would be easy to attack and kill since it might get stuck being kind of spammy, but would be hugely awesome for blocking practice.

I guess at the very least maybe the last guy should at least feint you and attack quickly. But yeah, having 4 fighters there is prime time for having escalating difficulty in fights.

Good suggestions, although the last sounds a little comlpex.

Giving them armour to show difficulty is a great idea.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

I see the latest version has tiers of melee fighters, good stuff!

Now if we could just get a riposte tutorial...