2.41 Troop Tree... Which one should I use?

[Babaganoush]

I'm seeing that a lot of people are concerned about the troop tree and overall game balance. I just downloaded this mod and been enjoying the features, but haven't gotten past the tier 3 of my rhodok troop tree yet. Some say it's too overdone... and by looking at it... it seems like I can agree there's too many branches (two branches for foot ranged?)

That being said, what are people using to counter this? Or are they using the current troop tree? ...Or should I wait until 2.5?

Great compilation so far, I'm just worried about the troop trees.

 

[Muglebust]

I too feel the troop tree is the weak point of this mod in its current form luckily you have several options linked in the sticky submod post, personally I like the RTT, but at least read through each and see what they are trying to accomplish with that particular tree, then go with whatever one you like.

The troop identifiers help a lot to give a quick overview of enemy force composition, even with the many branches.

 

[Lavalya]

You should inspect the units more closely.. They all have very specialised roles.
I personally love the "hybrid archers" from Sarranid, I stuff all my cities with them and vaegir swordsmen, and they become impenetrable fortresses.
However I do feel that some units are underpowered and some are overpowered, but this doesnt apply to very many units.
For example, Khergit horse archers are way easier to level than Sarranid's, when they get to those camel riders they die so easily its almost impossible to level them over this. Then theres all the light cavalry, they're pretty stong but in larger battles they die really easily.. I sent them to charge at the enemy archers and they just died, go figure lol. (granted I did sent like 10 of them at 30 archers) The main issue I have with light cavalry is that you cant use them the way they should be used tacticly, so they charge and just stand and fight and die.

Oh, and props on the lancer fix, its amazing, I love having lancers in my army now!

 

[RoboPatton]

The main issue I have with light cavalry is that you cant use them the way they should be used tacticly, so they charge and just stand and fight and die.

Are you using the custom commander options before you start a battle? If not, try it, it's my favorite part of the mod hands down.

I set them to their own category, "Light Cav" and have them stand at the left flank of the infantry/archers, while I ride with the Heavy Cav to set up a flank on the opposite side. Then when the enemy is close I tell the infantry to charge, and I flank with the heavy cav, and finally tell the light cav to charge following that. I find this works well tactically for light cav in open areas.

To go back OT- I found the number of troops intimidating at first but now I find it kind of fun to have spear-men/Pikers in their own formation when expecting enemy cav. I tell them to go out ten paces and spread out. After the enemy charge, I send out the infantry from their defensive shield wall to get stuck in.

My only gripe is when you get a mission to collect X types of H3 troops for the king or, capture X j1 troops for an exchange. It becomes a crap shoot at that point, but I don't mind the challenge.

You could always revert to using the original tree.

 

[Lavalya]

The main issue I have with light cavalry is that you cant use them the way they should be used tacticly, so they charge and just stand and fight and die.

Are you using the custom commander options before you start a battle? If not, try it, it's my favorite part of the mod hands down.

I set them to their own category, "Light Cav" and have them stand at the left flank of the infantry/archers, while I ride with the Heavy Cav to set up a flank on the opposite side. Then when the enemy is close I tell the infantry to charge, and I flank with the heavy cav, and finally tell the light cav to charge following that. I find this works well tactically for light cav in open areas.

To go back OT- I found the number of troops intimidating at first but now I find it kind of fun to have spear-men/Pikers in their own formation when expecting enemy cav. I tell them to go out ten paces and spread out. After the enemy charge, I send out the infantry from their defensive shield wall to get stuck in.

My only gripe is when you get a mission to collect X types of H3 troops for the king or, capture X j1 troops for an exchange. It becomes a crap shoot at that point, but I don't mind the challenge.

You could always revert to using the original tree.

You bring up a very interesting point. The train or capture troops quests are too hard and should be lowered to tier 3 at max. I cry inside when I have to train 6 C6 for the khan.. Takes me about 50 days, of which 40 are just standing idle until I have 20 C4's, and then raiding all sorts of bandits to level them for the remaining 10 days.
To complement the new troop trees and longer experience roads, and also early game roaming, I think there should be tiers of bandits, and mixed groups of them, because im personally sick of trying to solo 40 forest bandits at level 5 with my heroes (or army if I dont feel like leveling before I make one) staying out of their range as to not die. Ranged and Mounted bandits are too strong early on in the game, with emphasis on the ranged because unarmored and even shielded units that do not swarm them fall like flies to them, and once you're around level 10 they are so weak they dont present a challenge or ample experience anymore.

Or maybe just have bandits level with time. I personally find early game to be extremely boring, since its mostly just you cutting down whatever you can to actually start the game. Could even just decrease their numbers at the start of the game, and have some tier 2 cavalry for Khergit, since they're born in the saddle anyway and you can actually fight steppe and desert bandits with national troops that way.
I've never really invested more than two points into tactics, but I'm new to the mod so. :p
I really, really hate piketroops now, They're balanced and extremely useful in armies now, but to roam and find some 40 rhodok peasants slaughter your carefully construed mounted army (best way to actually be able to fight enemy lords as early as possible) kinda sucks. xD But thats just me whining.
Anyway, I also think the leadership skill should be increased by 2 troops per level, because its only really useful to increase your army size late game, where its pretty much too low without 1k renown, and this opens alot of new army composition options for me.

 

[RoboPatton]

Yeah for example, I am working with the Swadians. I am trying to get into the pants of a daughter of one lords realm. Since I want him to be daddy-in-law, Im trying to impress the ugly bastard. All he ever asks me to do is train him some troops, and its like Cheveliers ! And other expensive cavalry types. Whats he offer me in return? 100 coin. lol wtf is that?

If the reward paid more to do those expensive troops, and it were say, profitable it would be much better. Or like you said, if they were tier 3 at the very highest.

This part of the mod needs a touch of attention I think.

Despite this, I love the hell out of this mod.

 

[Caba`drin]

This part of the mod needs a touch of attention I think.

Just to be clear, which part? The troop tree in general, or making the Native "find these troops for me quest" make sense?

 

[Vazzaroth]

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one encountering some of these issues. Training troops quests SUUUUUUUCK with this mod, I always take them to avoid the 2 or so loss in standing with no intention of every trying. You only lose 1 standing if you fail.

And bandits are virtually invincible in certain regions if you don't have a professional, large army! Bandits should not be that level of threat! And some of them, even with a good army, will still stomp you flat. I had an army of about 30, mostly I2-3 and A3 Swadians (And another with Rhodoks) and they killed, I think, 1 horse bandit  out of around 20 bandits/lords before they were entirely wiped out. I managed to kill one my self after, like, 3 Crossbow shots...

I've tried starting a Swadian character many times now, and the super accurate  and strong longbows of forest bandits just tear me to shreds every time and I have to restart.  And god forbid I get a quest to wander anywhere near the Desert or Khurgit... I'll be swarmed by super powerful Horse Lords (usually 16+, with just as many minions on horses) who move rocket speed at like 8.0 on the map screen, and usually in groups 3 warbands. I had to pay off no less than 6 groups in a row once, I spent almost 2K to finish a delivery mission that got me 200. And then of course the Vaegirs occasionally find Horselords for their army too... >_<

These two issues combined are what have been making me play Vanilla and considering uninstalling Floris. I really like everything else it adds... ALOT, but I can't play any of my characters, they just get destroyed at every step...


Edit: BTW the native troop tree mod does not work with current Floris. It ruins character creation's text lines.

 

[Thoridon]

I haven't found bandits to be an issue. At the start you have the speed to outrun any large groups if you stay in Swadian / Nord / Vaegir territory and you can do the early quests while collecting recruits from villages and taking on looters. Avoid the coastal areas with Sea Raiders and stay out of the deserts to avoid the fast mounted bandits right at the start. A bit of trade and you can get some early enterprises running, then you have the platform to recruit enough troops and promote to tier 3 to take on any group of 30+ bandits. From that point they shouldn't be an issue, just watch for deserters as there can be groups that run from you but have tier 4 troops which can be nasty if you're not careful.

I haven't tried the optional extra someone made for tougher bandits but in normal Floris at least they're certainly not impossible, you just can't run straight into them the second you start the game like you can in native.

 

[Vazzaroth]

Personally, saying "Stay out of an entire region that you can start in" translates to a problem. Especially when you get quests to transport things there. And I quickly lose the ability to outrun forest and horse bandits at anything above 20 men, which is usually about how many I like to recruit in the first 5 mins since most looters number 15+.

 

[reallybigjohnson]

i dont mind the number of troops to pick from in fact i find it kind of nice since you can try different stuff out.  what i dont like are the goofy upgrade choices.  there are absolutetly no swadian foot soldiers that use shields.  rhoddock archers can chew through my swadian highlanders at will during sieges for no other reason than i cant outfit ANY foot soldiers with shields.  ive tried making armies with just chevaliers and other mounted troops that do use shields but they are very expensive and take alot longer to level up.  i just wisht they would add a bit more variety to the weapon load outs because when i look at the troop trees i see alot of overlap and redundancy.  how many different types of bow archers do you really need?

 

[Babaganoush]

I've been playing the RTT and haven't really had a problem with it (other than Swadia dying so quickly due to it being surrounded by enemies and diplomacy killing them [greedy Sarranids...]).

Just you know, the common complain of capturing a certain type of troop has been a pain, but other than that, it's been okay.

Bandits havent really been a problem for me. Except the Sea Raiders because I didn't expect them to be that hard in this mod lol.

I started to cry as I saw my whole melee line get chopped up when I thought Tier 3 units were (edit: enough to) fight them.

 

[Vazzaroth]

I've been playing the RTT and haven't really had a problem with it (other than Swadia dying so quickly due to it being surrounded by enemies and diplomacy killing them [greedy Sarranids...]).

Just you know, the common complain of capturing a certain type of troop has been a pain, but other than that, it's been okay.

Bandits havent really been a problem for me. Except the Sea Raiders because I didn't expect them to be that hard in this mod lol.

I started to cry as I saw my whole melee line get chopped up when I thought Tier 3 units were fight them.

I actually just started using RTT as well and I agree, it's alot better than the More and Tougher Troop mod I was using. I highly recommend RTT for a near-native troop experience.

Havn't seen sea raiders yet, but I always fear them due to heavy armor >_<

 

[Lavalya]

I haven't tried the optional extra someone made for tougher bandits but in normal Floris at least they're certainly not impossible, you just can't run straight into them the second you start the game like you can in native.

Oh I most definately can. Any group of 20 or lower die to me, anything more than that and the sheer amount of arrows rip through anything I have.

Dont get me wrong, I dont mind bandits that present a challenge, but the way they're set up (mass bows, mass cavalry) kind of forces you to resort to certain tactics if you want to take them out quickly without (or with little) casualties.

In this mod I actually think sea raiders are the easiest type of bandit, lol, because they're still close to their native counterparts, which I've hunted for months back when I only played native. Give them a shield instead of a bow, or 4 javelins or throwing axes (kinda more realistic for sea raiders) and they'll be more balanced, because you just have to command your heroes/army a bit to take them out then.
I personally find once you get a couple horse units/heroes that forest bandits are a joke, but mountain bandits I still can't get close to despite my entire party having atleast 40 armor on every equipment slot. xD
Now I do solo the heck out of any bandit group once im level 10, but this gets boring quickly.

 

[Lavalya]

i dont mind the number of troops to pick from in fact i find it kind of nice since you can try different stuff out.  what i dont like are the goofy upgrade choices.  there are absolutetly no swadian foot soldiers that use shields.  rhoddock archers can chew through my swadian highlanders at will during sieges for no other reason than i cant outfit ANY foot soldiers with shields.  ive tried making armies with just chevaliers and other mounted troops that do use shields but they are very expensive and take alot longer to level up.  i just wisht they would add a bit more variety to the weapon load outs because when i look at the troop trees i see alot of overlap and redundancy.  how many different types of bow archers do you really need?

My friend, once you understand each faction's archer units and their strengths and weaknesses, you'll come to love them. These days whenever I start a "Faction save" where I only recruit one faction, 90% of the troops I make are archers, and preferably the semi melee archers, just because they're so damn powerful in garrisons. I basicly rely on the strength of every faction's units to count out their weaknesses. I never ever bring two handers to a siege, and if they have alot of archers, you have no shields but your faction has great archers, why not return the favour and have you and your heroes rush in first with shields, so they get targeted with arrows and not your archers? Or even use the cavalry you did train for this, with your heroes right beside them. Once you're inside your archers can really turn the terrain against them.

 

[effemb]

Id reccommend RTT as well simply because i made it, but hehe, bias aside, ill give a note of caution.  its quite prematurely released and i will be releasing a balanced up version soon.  so, give it a bit of lee-way, ill have it updated soon to be more fine tuned.

it only changes the troop tree and troop stats/equipment/skills and in many cases eventual upgrade paths, so problems of early game being able to build yourself up to fight off bandits isnt going to be solved here.

it will however make the ease of building comprehensive armies, with faction-true flavour, be not only much easier but possible, as that is the goal of the TT mod.
give me a few more weeks to fine tune though.

one thing i have been doing in my games, too, is that i play my heroes sortof like a persistent world RPG....or maybe more simply explained: everytime i start a new game, i import my heroes from the previous game, so each game i play becomes progressively easier as my heroes are higher level.  getting them gear, however, is something i chose to redo every game, starting from scratch....so its only a slight bonus, but significant at the same time (if thats not an oxymoron... )

this makes the early stage not really that difficult anymore.  as you start out with a 17 party size with just you and your companions, and they are good enough even with the raw gear equipment they come with, to take out looters and small bandit parties.
grab some recruits quickly too, at least 30+ and you shouldnt ever have problems with bandits again as long as youre able to maintain your army and build it (not lose it....losing it later in the game and having to start over which is something i had to do recently in a 200+ day game where i hadnt conquered anything for myself yet...was QUITE PAINFUL! bandit parties were up to 90+ and going to the desert or steppes was more or less suicide.)

 

[RoboPatton]

After reading a few of the previous posts, I have to say get tactics 2, and USE the freakin battle options! They are awesome. Especially as a Swadian. You may want to remap the order keys to something easily accessible on the keyboard, because you will be giving a lot of orders. Using Florian (and the custom commander mod, to be more specific), here is my unstoppable (custom commander) Swadian strategy:

Get a decent combo of archers and infantry. Also, spend the cash to have a handful of cavalry.

select the "Lead the troops" option. Prior to battle. Tell the archers to take the nearest hill, or save that, the furthest location on an flat plain and set them to "hold this position".

Tell the infantry to be slight before them, and "hold this position".

Tell the Cavalry to follow you.

Lead the cav behind a hill or away from the enemies archers. Draw the enemy into a conflict, and watch as the archers wittle them down. Then, tell the infantry to charge. Once the melee is on, simply lead the cav into the battle from the flank, if you are feeling strong, tell them to charge. Then flow out the other side and tell them to follow. You will create a gap in the enemy lines and with shield away from your own lines, the archers will get massive kills. Rinse and repeat.

This brings me to a point- I see some nations will use some form of startegy, but most simply charge your lines, which is suicide with the above tactic. It would be refreshing to see the AI use some random strategy now and then. Especially when fighting a king, baron or etc...

 

[Lavalya]

After reading a few of the previous posts, I have to say get tactics 2, and USE the freakin battle options! They are awesome. Especially as a Swadian. You may want to remap the order keys to something easily accessible on the keyboard, because you will be giving a lot of orders. Using Florian (and the custom commander mod, to be more specific), here is my unstoppable (custom commander) Swadian strategy:

Get a decent combo of archers and infantry. Also, spend the cash to have a handful of cavalry.

select the "Lead the troops" option. Prior to battle. Tell the archers to take the nearest hill, or save that, the furthest location on an flat plain and set them to "hold this position".

Tell the infantry to be slight before them, and "hold this position".

Tell the Cavalry to follow you.

Lead the cav behind a hill or away from the enemies archers. Draw the enemy into a conflict, and watch as the archers wittle them down. Then, tell the infantry to charge. Once the melee is on, simply lead the cav into the battle from the flank, if you are feeling strong, tell them to charge. Then flow out the other side and tell them to follow. You will create a gap in the enemy lines and with shield away from your own lines, the archers will get massive kills. Rinse and repeat.

This brings me to a point- I see some nations will use some form of startegy, but most simply charge your lines, which is suicide with the above tactic. It would be refreshing to see the AI use some random strategy now and then. Especially when fighting a king, baron or etc...

The tactical basics often prevail in any strategy game. (mostly because theres no AI expectations to mess with lol)

 

[imgran]

You should inspect the units more closely.. They all have very specialised roles.!

I think that's the problem.  There's something to be said for versatility, especially with PBOD on board.

 

[Shapic]

About tactics... Get a mix of high tier cavalry and tell them to charge. Don't forget to dismount them on hilly maps. But still infantry is cheaper.