1.6.0: Smithing still effectively a nonsensical on demand money printer

[Vekar]

The costs of the weapons made during smithing is... Astounding once you get up there in levels but I also REALLY like that I can work to make a truly special weapon that CAN NOT be bought anywhere and can just 1 hit kill almost anything, that alone makes it worthwhile for me. I do not want to see weapons in smithing nerfed for damage in the slightest but the system does need some serious work because of the absolute GRIND it is and also just how... I mean, I can make a 200k weapon... But who the bloody heck is going to buy it?

 

[ashize9879]

I'm going to say no, crafting in real or virtual worlds has always been one to yield profit. To get breaking profits you have to pass the 100 lvl mark, and that may be under the mark honestly.

To hit even 70k, which I found by experimenting, you need to be around 170 I think. It varies on luck of recipe parts you find.

So no, Smithing money should not be removed from the game.

The best bow costs 200+k, some of the best swords in the game cost the same, armor can go for 300 and above. So no, Smithing has got majorly nerfed since the start, if you compare pricing of what in-game items are vs you being able to Smith better equipment and it cost less.

The game has been majorly nerfing smithing since the start of the games creation.

To give an example, Smithing is not a game breaking skill due to: right now I'm continually at war with 3 different countries and due to that I'm only able to net maybe...a max of 500 to 600k if I'm lucky by running around to various territories around the world, which lasts only maybe through one to two wars as I'm using the equipment I get from battles to lvl my troops to keep them high tier against enemies, and keep ahead of the opposition.

Smithing only grants a way to keep your head above water.

Just like any other real life scenario or game in existence, crafting is a way to make millions, and given enough time you can. However, as players with many hours in game can tell you, smithing takes many hours to get to lvl 200, it's not a short journey and your a millionair

It takes hours.

Game creators, don't listen to the original thread poster. That's nonsense that Smithing breaks the game. If one smith's the best weapon in the game, it should be worth the best weapon in the game. Which currently is at least 200k

One gets paid what something is worth. It's only fair

I'm very against anyone that wants to put down getting paid for what they earn

 

[Foxwell Covington]

I'm going to say no, crafting in real or virtual worlds has always been one to yield profit. To get breaking profits you have to pass the 100 lvl mark, and that may be under the mark honestly.

To hit even 70k, which I found by experimenting, you need to be around 170 I think. It varies on luck of recipe parts you find.

So no, Smithing money should not be removed from the game.

The best bow costs 200+k, some of the best swords in the game cost the same, armor can go for 300 and above. So no, Smithing has got majorly nerfed since the start, if you compare pricing of what in-game items are vs you being able to Smith better equipment and it cost less.

The game has been majorly nerfing smithing since the start of the games creation.

To give an example, Smithing is not a game breaking skill due to: right now I'm continually at war with 3 different countries and due to that I'm only able to net maybe...a max of 500 to 600k if I'm lucky by running around to various territories around the world, which lasts only maybe through one to two wars as I'm using the equipment I get from battles to lvl my troops to keep them high tier against enemies, and keep ahead of the opposition.

Smithing only grants a way to keep your head above water.

Just like any other real life scenario or game in existence, crafting is a way to make millions, and given enough time you can. However, as players with many hours in game can tell you, smithing takes many hours to get to lvl 200, it's not a short journey and your a millionair

It takes hours.

Game creators, don't listen to the original thread poster. That's nonsense that Smithing breaks the game. If one smith's the best weapon in the game, it should be worth the best weapon in the game. Which currently is at least 200k

One gets paid what something is worth. It's only fair

I'm very against anyone that wants to put down getting paid for what they earn

1k hours here since the start of EA. I ignored smithing for about a year due to it being like a money cheat then came back to try again in 1.7. They have nerfed smithing but no where near enough. There is nothing stopping anyone from buying throwing daggers and wood on day 1 and continually making 2h swords to get to $100k pretty quickly. With 1000d you can buy a few Pugios and smelt them in to the materials to make a sword worth a few thousand minimum, even at low level, that is unballanced. Smelting yield needs to be scaled by level to reduce the amount of expensive materials available to a novice smith, or the quality multiplier needs to be scaled down further based on skill. Levelling smithing should be a money sink until you've leveled (75+?) but at the moment you turn a profit from the first item you make.

 

[kweassa]

Didn't 1.7.x balance it to a good point? The toning down of the prices on 2h swords + raising other tier5~6 weapons prices (polearms/1h swords) to a similar level -- seems to have really helped.

Yes, it's still a lot of money, but it's not like the old 60~80k per pop as it used to be. Tier5 weapons cost around 12~15k range, and goes over 20k with Thamaskene parts. I think taking the expensive orders are actually way better in making quick money now.

 

[ashize9879]

1k hours here since the start of EA. I ignored smithing for about a year due to it being like a money cheat then came back to try again in 1.7. They have nerfed smithing but no where near enough. There is nothing stopping anyone from buying throwing daggers and wood on day 1 and continually making 2h swords to get to $100k pretty quickly. With 1000d you can buy a few Pugios and smelt them in to the materials to make a sword worth a few thousand minimum, even at low level, that is unballanced. Smelting yield needs to be scaled by level to reduce the amount of expensive materials available to a novice smith, or the quality multiplier needs to be scaled down further based on skill. Levelling smithing should be a money sink until you've leveled (75+?) but at the moment you turn a profit from the first item you make.

Dude, no idea where your getting your figures. Even if you say you've played for 1k hours, you say you can easily make 100k. No, no you really can't.

The last version before this last update allowed a max of 78-79k, unless maybe a masterwork weapon, with high trade level, 100k would have to likely be at level 150 trade at least, as I'm around 100 now and making 78k with the best sword in the game, and that was on the version before the most recent.

Now, the best sword in the game nets 40k.

This vs the most expensive swords that can be bought at hugely higher prices

So no, the whole fight against smithing in that it's overpriced is not true. If the world pricing for goods of high quality is priced high, realism dictates that also a high priced sword smithed should also be high priced

Smithing in the very beginning in the first updates was broken, we can agree on that. Yes. Making a max of now 38k from the best sword in the game. Smithing has been nerfed far enough

One last point. Smithing = crafting. In any game people who spend hours building their crafting stats generally will end up making loads of money over time. This is just realistic.

To get Smithing to a high enough level, unless your lucky enough to unlock the best parts you need early on, let's say 200, you need to put in a couple hours of work. This is with attribute stat at level 5 for endurance, and with 5 focus points. So with hours put in the payout should be accordingly

 

[Foxwell Covington]

Didn't 1.7.x balance it to a good point? The toning down of the prices on 2h swords + raising other tier5~6 weapons prices (polearms/1h swords) to a similar level -- seems to have really helped.

Yes, it's still a lot of money, but it's not like the old 60~80k per pop as it used to be. Tier5 weapons cost around 12~15k range, and goes over 20k with Thamaskene parts. I think taking the expensive orders are actually way better in making quick money now.

This may just be because I've played the game a lot but I still find it very easy to make a silly amount of cash smithing with minimal effort or game time. A noob may take a bit of time to figure out the specific items required, but it isn't rocket surgery.

 

[ashize9879]

1k hours here since the start of EA. I ignored smithing for about a year due to it being like a money cheat then came back to try again in 1.7. They have nerfed smithing but no where near enough. There is nothing stopping anyone from buying throwing daggers and wood on day 1 and continually making 2h swords to get to $100k pretty quickly. With 1000d you can buy a few Pugios and smelt them in to the materials to make a sword worth a few thousand minimum, even at low level, that is unballanced. Smelting yield needs to be scaled by level to reduce the amount of expensive materials available to a novice smith, or the quality multiplier needs to be scaled down further based on skill. Levelling smithing should be a money sink until you've leveled (75+?) but at the moment you turn a profit from the first item you make.

(Addressing from version before this current one)

First off, before I address further. Buying daggers for smelting usually comes from attacking looters or using your trade to go back and forth and rack up enough money. Not from Smithing. Let us be clear on this, and then after doing so Smithing gradually gives you profit upwards of between a hundred > a couple hundred > 500 > 1000 > and slowly from there changing value until you cap at about 40k in the higher levels.

This takes continual time to over and over rebuild your funds and find daggers to melt down through the world. Granted you get the recipes required to make better quality goods you want.

The game has been good to help learn recipes within the weapon you are trying to make, making it easier to learn the recipes you need to make better profits

Moving on though, lets say we do as you say, which does make sense in realism, a Smith learning slowly and failing to make a good or losing profit here or there.

Alright, using your model then as you progress to a higher tier you would have higher success and unlock higher tier recipes for better profit and success correct?

If so then, can we agree that at these higher tiers profit should then be worth the goods and be high for said high tier goods?

 

[ashize9879]

As of 1.7, I agree on Smithing has been balanced out. It's half of what profits were, which should appease anyone wanting a nerf on Smithing

I dont agree this was a needed nerf

However, I agree that Smithing has been majorly balanced and nerfed compared to where it was before

 

[Foxwell Covington]

Dude, no idea where your getting your figures. Even if you say you've played for 1k hours, you say you can easily make 100k. No, no you really can't.

Not 100k per weapon, I picked an arbitrary number because the amount of profit you can make is only limited by the amount of time you're willing to put in. In my current game I have 50 smithing and my three companions have 20-40. If I want money I buy some daggers and craft some 2h swords that sell for $3-5k a piece and clear out the towns money.

Smithing in the very beginning in the first updates was broken, we can agree on that. Yes. Making a max of now 38k from the best sword in the game. Smithing has been nerfed far enough

One last point. Smithing = crafting. In any game people who spend hours building their crafting stats generally will end up making loads of money over time. This is just realistic.

I agree a high quality weapon should sell for a lot of cash, my issue is low quality weapons made by low level characters are far too profitable. I'd like to see the profit on a steeper gradient compared to skill.

 

[froggyluv]

and craft some 2h swords that sell for $3-5k a piece and clear out the towns money.

The games Economy AI doesnt temper a towns spending alls it money just because the player wants to sell it there? im guessing there really isnt much of an Economy AI at all then

 

[Foxwell Covington]

If so then, can we agree that at these higher tiers profit should then be worth the goods and be high for said high tier goods?

Yeah for sure, a level 200 smith should definitely be able to craft expensive weapons.

The games Economy AI doesnt temper a towns spending alls it money just because the player wants to sell it there? im guessing there really isnt much of an Economy AI at all then

Correct, no diminishing returns on crafted items like with trade items either, you can take their coffers down to 0 denars.

 

[ashize9879]

Not 100k per weapon, I picked an arbitrary number because the amount of profit you can make is only limited by the amount of time you're willing to put in. In my current game I have 50 smithing and my three companions have 20-40. If I want money I buy some daggers and craft some 2h swords that sell for $3-5k a piece and clear out the towns money.

I agree a high quality weapon should sell for a lot of cash, my issue is low quality weapons made by low level characters are far too profitable. I'd like to see the profit on a steeper gradient compared to skill.

Ah...gotcha gotcha. I can agree there, it makes sense

 

[ashize9879]

I think my overall issue with the smithing issue is toward the hardcore peeps towards nerfing smithing altogether pretty much

If a player wants more of a challenge and doesn't want to play with smithing to make money, that's your playtime, no judgment.

However, if a player wants to play with smithing and make money off it to make an easier time of it, using weapons to sell to lords instead of 200-500k or more for their service to your clan, also should have no judgement.

It's an individuals playtime

I dont like an agenda feeling forced on people because people want to play hardcore and want smithing to only net like 5k max or something

Not directed at anyone who's commented here

Just a general statement of why I get agitated when I see the Smithing issue

The smithing buying and selling helps make the game manageable and easier for players like me that aren't wanting hardcore and play casually. It takes a lot of hours to learn this game and more to get good at it and learn strategies

This is just me ranting at the issue. No offense meant to anyone

 

[anoddhermit]

I think my overall issue with the smithing issue is toward the hardcore peeps towards nerfing smithing altogether pretty much

If a player wants more of a challenge and doesn't want to play with smithing to make money, that's your playtime, no judgment.

However, if a player wants to play with smithing and make money off it to make an easier time of it, using weapons to sell to lords instead of 200-500k or more for their service to your clan, also should have no judgement.

It's an individuals playtime

I dont like an agenda feeling forced on people because people want to play hardcore and want smithing to only net like 5k max or something

Not directed at anyone who's commented here

Just a general statement of why I get agitated when I see the Smithing issue

The smithing buying and selling helps make the game manageable and easier for players like me that aren't wanting hardcore and play casually. It takes a lot of hours to learn this game and more to get good at it and learn strategies

This is just me ranting at the issue. No offense meant to anyone

Overall difficulty can be adjusted, but skills and strategies being imbalanced relative to others on all difficulty levels can't. There's difficulty settings for casual players, but no difficulty setting to balance smithing(or overpowered weapons, troops, and so on).

Bannerlord is in part a strategy game. I'm aware it's not chess or go, but still. Some players want to play as hard and as strategically as they can to win. If one feature makes things too cheap and easy, this ruins that aspect of the game for them. They have to awkwardly play around part of the game, and can't fully enjoy that feature until it's balanced.

Anyway, 1.7 smithing isn't unusable for me anymore which is nice, it's still rather fast and easy money for the early game but not insanely so.

 

[ashize9879]

Overall difficulty can be adjusted, but skills and strategies being imbalanced relative to others on all difficulty levels can't. There's difficulty settings for casual players, but no difficulty setting to balance smithing(or overpowered weapons, troops, and so on).

Bannerlord is in part a strategy game. I'm aware it's not chess or go, but still. Some players want to play as hard and as strategically as they can to win. If one feature makes things too cheap and easy, this ruins that aspect of the game for them. They have to awkwardly play around part of the game, and can't fully enjoy that feature until it's balanced.

Anyway, 1.7 smithing isn't unusable for me anymore which is nice, it's still rather fast and easy money for the early game but not insanely so.

Can agree, skills and strategy balance yes.

Agreed on early game can use some work for smithing.

Agree to disagree on maxing Smithing and not getting paid for what a weapon is worth

Haven't encountered too much around the skills they don't continue to make better. The only issue I've run into currently was the fire onager opening fire on its own allied siege walls, but that is for a different thread

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

If I were to really balance it I would look at how much campaign time it takes to produce the materials and weapons, meaning of course the time to wait to re-charge endurance as the actual smithing is time-freez event. I would then want to make it somewhat close in value on return then say fighting some bandits from town to town in that amount of time, at the lower level of the skill with only the 3-5 clan members you can have early. It should be slightly more close and then get slightly better because you are only progressing smithing as where when fighting bandits/questing you are raising a plethora of useful skills (hopefully) and possibly other pseudo currency like relation and renown. Now this value should increase, hopefully supplemented by contract smithing too for charm/relation boosts, as the smithing skill and clan size increases, so the money you can make with higher end smithing and many members pounding it out is closer in line to loot rewards from battles you could get at this more advanced part of the game, but not over shadowing it, as it is a risk free activity, but still considering it uses your campaign time and only advances money/smithing/possibly relations where combat advances money, variety skills, alt currency(renown, influence, relations) and agenda of player.

That said I am all for smithing being made faster, simpler, easier, less profitable but MORE USEFUL for actually making custom weapons for you clan's own use. I also think there should be a small passive recharge of stamina so you don't have to wait for it if you only do some smithing every now and then.

And if they want to take it out of the skill tree and have it be a bonus activity, go ahead.

 

[Akka]

This may just be because I've played the game a lot but I still find it very easy to make a silly amount of cash smithing with minimal effort or game time. A noob may take a bit of time to figure out the specific items required, but it isn't rocket surgery.

I only started using Crafting yesterday (literally), due to it always sounding like a cheat mode.

It's still stupid easy to make thousands upon thousand denar just by leveling the skill. A blacksmith output magnitudes more gold in subpar weapons than a full city in taxes. Even at below-50 skill you can produce weapons worth a few hundred denar, for a material cost of a few dozen. That's maybe low absolute numbers, but we're talking about a x10 investment ratio here for someone who is basically an apprentice, and that's with a roleplaying approach by a complete noob who is somewhat trying to avoid making money (for, again, roleplaying purpose). I shudder to think what someone who is actively attempting to optimize money gain can make.

It's still bonker. Prices in the game are nonsensical, a horse cost less than a bad axe. The problem IMO is that the prices are "gamed" rather than "simulationist" (as in : "how much this thing should cost in the world" rather than "let's drop a formula that is based on gamey tiers"). So we get absurd results like this.

Also, I've not really written down the results, but I have the feeling that smelting is too efficient. I get the feeling that if you just want to level up (not sell), you can just recycle infinitely the same material (forge => smelt => get the same amount of materials you used, repeat). There should be significantly less materials obtained through smelting a weapon than required to make this weapon.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

Also, I've not really written down the results, but I have the feeling that smelting is too efficient. I get the feeling that if you just want to level up (not sell), you can just recycle infinitely the same material (forge => smelt => get the same amount of materials you used, repeat). There should be significantly less materials obtained through smelting a weapon than required to make this weapon.

Not quite. Everytime you craft and smelt, one of the highest tier crafting materials used is downgraded a tier.

 

[Dabos37]

Hey! I have been out for a while. Are we still getting +150K when completing high level orders (Two-Handed swords and polearms)?

 

[Akka]

Not quite. Everytime you craft and smelt, one of the highest tier crafting materials used is downgraded a tier.

Just one crafting material downgraded ? Well, that's still quite a lot more efficient than it should.
I was thinking more on the line of having half the materials used to craft being lost in the process.