1.6.0: Smithing still effectively a nonsensical on demand money printer

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anoddhermit

Sergeant
Started new campaign to try smithing specifically.

Making Two Handers for 1k right off the bat. Not too imbalanced because of materials cost and time but still pretty good money with no investment into the skill at all.

Then, after a few unlocks, making Hammer Head Polearms by day 5 for 4-6k a pop with rando companions for almost no materials.

I think the issue is still how sell price for weapons is calculate. A slow swinging piece of wood stuck to a piece of wood is selling for more than fancy fine steel weapons. Length and damage seem to matter more than the overall quality of the weapon and its stat balance. The material cost and skill of the smith still makes little difference.

Something could be done without messing with weapon prices at the broader level. For example, why not something like:

First, a base sell price that is capped at [Base cost of mats x1.5] + [smith skill x10]. Now materials and smithing skill simply factor in no matter what.

Then factor in the + and - stats in creation. 10% bonus or reduction to price using the above sell price as base.

So I make a weapon that costs 1000d in materials. [1500d]. I have 50 smithing skill. [1500d+500d=2000d]. I craft it well and it gets +5 stats total. [2000d+1000d=3000d].

But if a weapon costs only 100d in materials with 10smithing skill: 150+100+ = 250. But I am making a weapon with poor skill and it gets -5 stats. 250-125=125. 25g profit still but of course I have a meager 10 smithing and am slapping bits wood together. This means my cheap crap polearms no longer sell for 6k but I can still achieve solid sell price weapons as a decent smith, like in the example above.

Of course this is a super crude example and the numbers and formulas would need more thought and trial and error, but you get the idea. This would pretty much make smithing less about spamming specific recipes and more about quality of the materials and skill of the smith, in a simple, understandable, straightforward manner, no?
 

Brano

Recruit
Started new campaign to try smithing specifically.

Making Two Handers for 1k right off the bat. Not too imbalanced because of materials cost and time but still pretty good money with no investment into the skill at all.

Then, after a few unlocks, making Hammer Head Polearms by day 5 for 4-6k a pop with rando companions for almost no materials.

I think the issue is still how sell price for weapons is calculate. A slow swinging piece of wood stuck to a piece of wood is selling for more than fancy fine steel weapons. Length and damage seem to matter more than the overall quality of the weapon and its stat balance. The material cost and skill of the smith still makes little difference.

Something could be done without messing with weapon prices at the broader level. For example, why not something like:

First, a base sell price that is capped at [Base cost of mats x1.5] + [smith skill x10]. Now materials and smithing skill simply factor in no matter what.

Then factor in the + and - stats in creation. 10% bonus or reduction to price using the above sell price as base.

So I make a weapon that costs 1000d in materials. [1500d]. I have 50 smithing skill. [1500d+500d=2000d]. I craft it well and it gets +5 stats total. [2000d+1000d=3000d].

But if a weapon costs only 100d in materials with 10smithing skill: 150+100+ = 250. But I am making a weapon with poor skill and it gets -5 stats. 250-125=125. 25g profit still but of course I have a meager 10 smithing and am slapping bits wood together. This means my cheap crap polearms no longer sell for 6k but I can still achieve solid sell price weapons as a decent smith, like in the example above.

Of course this is a super crude example and the numbers and formulas would need more thought and trial and error, but you get the idea. This would pretty much make smithing less about spamming specific recipes and more about quality of the materials and skill of the smith, in a simple, understandable, straightforward manner, no?
Why bother my brother? For all wannabe medieval blacksmiths coming soon
 
Smithing is ruining the economy on the game, it should simply exist only to create gear that you and your companions can equip, not sell. Trading should be the main way of making money.
 
whaaaa? but what about raiding and drinking from the skull? what about conversations about somebody's purse and their belongings?

Doing that gives you 2 ways of making denars, selling the **** or turning it to smithing mats. Smithing makes it so the only thing to do in this game is fighting fighting and fighting. Trading is FAR less profitable and risky, because if you die while you have 300k worth of trading goiods on you, you lose everything...
 
Leveling rebalance helps nerf ridiculous smithing. Tier 1 two hander sells for 100 denars in that mod. The javelins tend to sell for 75-110. So it isnt a money printer
 
but this is what BL is all about as it now. You only have fun during the first 5-10 years. After that, it's only war.

emmm what? and exactly how you accomplish such a feat like dying and losing?
Well sometimes i lose battles, i cant be the only one lol.
 

Althix

Sergeant
Well sometimes i lose battles, i cant be the only one lol.
hold on. if you trade you don't fight, you may occasionally roadkill some bandits here and there. because i do my 300 trade and i don't remember fighting. and i assumed you somehow lose to bandits.
 
hold on. if you trade you don't fight, you may occasionally roadkill some bandits here and there. because i do my 300 trade and i don't remember fighting. and i assumed you somehow lose to bandits.
Bro i do everything in the game at the same time, i trade and fight and siege, etc etc. And since i do it all, let me tell you that Trading is NOT a good way to make money compared to the other ways.
 
Smithing is ruining the economy on the game, it should simply exist only to create gear that you and your companions can equip, not sell. Trading should be the main way of making money.
That be pretty cool if they also stream lined it to make less of a grind and just used say the order quests as a way the player could make some only/relation through smithing, but not allow them to just endlessly make money. BUT they would need to change the unlocks so the player doesn't have to endlessly pump out weapons forever to get what they want.

Also, I think people who do money mint smithing really underestimate the negative effect of waiting around for stamina all the time. Anytime you wait around you're not progressing the game at all. Okay you make some money from smithing, but you didn't achieve anything or push your campaign further. You can get plenty of money just winning battles so it's kind of silly. But I understand the desire to kame certain weapons', especially now that certain good one are much rarer.

For a long time my counter to smithing was "Long glaive 1hko everything" why bother? 1st in 1.5.9 it's hard to find on spouse and doesn't appear in stores until high prosperity. Now in 1.6 on iron man, good luck getting the one guy with a long glaive to marry you! So smithing for special weapons becomes more atractive!

I also think it could be an interesting combo of using the steward perk to use discarded weapons to give exp to troops! I probably would be pretty usful if you could pump out some expensive weapons and us them to power level your troops for garrisons and such.
 

Althix

Sergeant
I also think it could be an interesting combo of using the steward perk to use discarded weapons to give exp to troops!
yeah, you smelt all the junk and craft high-value weapons to turn it into troops exp. In my opinion, this system kinda undermines the value of +n of xp per day and +n more xp after battle perks.
 
n my opinion, this system kinda undermines the value of +n of xp per day and +n more xp after battle perks.
Which is pretty tuff to do considering what petty, irrelevant garbage those perks are.
Which Dev looked at the trainer skill in warband I was like " I HATE IT!!!!!!" perks are just PERKS they can't be GOOD! nO!"
 

Althix

Sergeant
Which is pretty tuff to do considering what petty, irrelevant garbage those perks are.
em no, before 1.6.0 A Good Days Rest was my mandatory perk. These perks were good enough so i could maintain the level of my troops.
Now i can craft xp, loot xp and buy xp for my troops.
 

Althix

Sergeant
@AnandaShanti let me make certain clarifications.
If the game has a feature that undermines and or negates other features currently present in the game, the feature in question is a bad feature.
Because there is some work involved in gaining 150 Athletics perk, when reaching level 150 of Steward is not a task at all. However, steward perks make other perks that increase passive troops xp gain irrelevant and obsolete.
This is not a good decision from TW to allow us to convert items into xp for troops. Aside from the points i brought above, as it now i literally do not care how many my units end up dead, because i know i can level them up from a recruit to T4/T6 in moments. Troops preservation is no longer a concern of mine, and that also undermines the value of Medicine skill.
 
@AnandaShanti let me make certain clarifications.
If the game has a feature that undermines and or negates other features currently present in the game, the feature in question is a bad feature.
Because there is some work involved in gaining 150 Athletics perk, when reaching level 150 of Steward is not a task at all. However, steward perks make other perks that increase passive troops xp gain irrelevant and obsolete.
This is not a good decision from TW to allow us to convert items into xp for troops. Aside from the points i brought above, as it now i literally do not care how many my units end up dead, because i know i can level them up from a recruit to T4/T6 in moments. Troops preservation is no longer a concern of mine, and that also undermines the value of Medicine skill.
Solid points for sure. However I would rather have the loot dump mechanic and get better perks instead of "2xp a day if your socks match!" perks for the other skills.

I know it's YMMV type of thing but I have tunz of games with and without the various passive exp perks and IMO they never make difference to me at all.
I'm very organized and deliberate and if I need troops leveled I do it immediately, I don't have troops dragging around in a unusable state.

By contrast I can use the loot dump proactively by taking a stack of recruits and making tribal horsemen or levey Xbows on the spot, this agrees with my play style and is similar to in warband, taking a stack of troops out before midnight to proc the trainer exp on them without suffering the moral debuff of dragging them all around all day. It's a good new ability.
 

Brano

Recruit
In my opinion smithing/weapon industry should be integrated into trading system as other trade goods => consumables. With standard supply/demand system owning such enterprise with its complete production chain (from raw materials to finished products) would suddenly become of strategic importance for every warlord in Calradia.
Upgrading troops with better armor&weapons could be possible only when stopping by in cities with availabe goods => no miraculous manna from heaven after clicking upgrade and throwing fistfuls of golden coins into thin air in the middle of desert or forest.
Troops experience/tier should also be disconnected from their equipment. Its OK to have veteran spearman in ones party with average/standard or even sub-par equipment if budget is tight. Better armor should guarantee what it guaranteed. Better survivability chance. And better weapons...well.. any wooden stick with pointy metal thing at one end is only as good as it is durable. But we don't have durability of weapons in this game.
 

Redsniper6

Recruit
There is still alot that needs to be done for smithing. I do agree it allows you to become too rich too fast, but alot of things in this game cost insane amounts of money and without being able to make millions you will not be able to form your own kingdom or enjoy top tier armor or weapons. You have to spend millions to even get lords with no land to your side even if you have great relations with the lord and having the family's married. If they own any property and will bring it with them it cost even more even while you have extra land to offer out to any lords willing to join. I think having 275 for bartering fiefs is insane, if I am a king then I should be able to deal my own property out. I also dont want to see my Tier 6 weapons be worth dog **** while the worse tier 6 weapon in the shop is still 100k+. Also you can become uber rich off trading, not as fast as smithing but still really quick and make alot of money if you have a high trade skill level which is what having a maxed out skill should look like. If I have maxed smithing or maxed trading I should be raking in the money, otherwise what the hell is the point of maxing a money skill? and yes smithing is a money skill thats why smithing was a real life business that made many poor workers alot of money if they were good. A balance needs to be found for the smith skill and because it effects the economy of the game alot, tweaking it may take some time to find the best balance.
 
Started new campaign to try smithing specifically.

Making Two Handers for 1k right off the bat. Not too imbalanced because of materials cost and time but still pretty good money with no investment into the skill at all.

Then, after a few unlocks, making Hammer Head Polearms by day 5 for 4-6k a pop with rando companions for almost no materials.

I think the issue is still how sell price for weapons is calculate. A slow swinging piece of wood stuck to a piece of wood is selling for more than fancy fine steel weapons. Length and damage seem to matter more than the overall quality of the weapon and its stat balance. The material cost and skill of the smith still makes little difference.

Something could be done without messing with weapon prices at the broader level. For example, why not something like:

First, a base sell price that is capped at [Base cost of mats x1.5] + [smith skill x10]. Now materials and smithing skill simply factor in no matter what.

Then factor in the + and - stats in creation. 10% bonus or reduction to price using the above sell price as base.

So I make a weapon that costs 1000d in materials. [1500d]. I have 50 smithing skill. [1500d+500d=2000d]. I craft it well and it gets +5 stats total. [2000d+1000d=3000d].

But if a weapon costs only 100d in materials with 10smithing skill: 150+100+ = 250. But I am making a weapon with poor skill and it gets -5 stats. 250-125=125. 25g profit still but of course I have a meager 10 smithing and am slapping bits wood together. This means my cheap crap polearms no longer sell for 6k but I can still achieve solid sell price weapons as a decent smith, like in the example above.

Of course this is a super crude example and the numbers and formulas would need more thought and trial and error, but you get the idea. This would pretty much make smithing less about spamming specific recipes and more about quality of the materials and skill of the smith, in a simple, understandable, straightforward manner, no?
Yeah, I agree that sort of calculation would be much better than the current system. The Smithing stamina improvement was a good start, but there are a few other things I would like to see scale with Smithing skillI:

-A % chance to fail and make a worthless hunk of metal or lower quality version, also scaling with component difficulty.

-The yield of materials from smelting/refining, with caps specific to the object. e.g. a level 10 Smith gets 1 Crude Iron from smelting a hoe while a level 100 Smith gets the full yield of 4 Crude Iron. You may need 200 Smithing minimum to get any Fine Steel from smelting a T6 sword.

-Unlocking recipes linked to the specific object you are smelting e.g. at 150 Smithing I am skilled enough to learn all three components of this Hatchet I just smelted, while a level 10 Smith may need to smelt 8 of them to unlock the first component. This makes sense immersively as it will lead us to purchase items so we can "study" them with the hope of duplicating the item and makes finding a high tier item on the battle field more of a boon.
 
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