The science of chi?

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Some demonstrations of the more common applications of "internal strength".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28

It's not magic. It's a learned skill: whole body coordination and sensitivity. No laws of physics or physiology are being violated here.

Hard to find a good teacher these days though...

Don't confuse serious martial studies with the Final Fantasy Finger of Death Chi Blast crap which is impossible in our known universe.
 
Archonsod said:
You can't collapse a lung without puncturing the chest cavity, not something you can really do with a human hand, and not something which will happen without burying yourself wrist deep into someone's torso.

If I remember it right, the punch happened somewhere around solar plexus, maybe a bit above it. They said it generated so much power and impact, that it compressed the chest more than a car crash at 50 mph. From the compression (If I remembered correctly) the sternum cracked and the heart collapsed.

The show itself wasn't bad, but they concentrated on eastern martial arts too much and their assumption that katana is the ultimate weapon made me laugh out loud. Also they gave it to a taekwondo champion and he tried very hard not to cut his own leg off...poor.
 
Merlkir said:
If I remember it right, the punch happened somewhere around solar plexus, maybe a bit above it. They said it generated so much power and impact, that it compressed the chest more than a car crash at 50 mph. From the compression (If I remembered correctly) the sternum cracked and the heart collapsed.

Shock arythmia I believe it is called, or something very close to that.  When a blow on the chest substantially compresses the heart it disrupts the heartbeat giving them a free heart attack/heart failure, without the years of fast food dieting and obesity leading up to it.  Now it isn't something I would rely on in a fight though, because first, you have to deal with the muscles in the chest, and the air pressure in the lungs, which makes it difficult to break ribs in a controlled environment, let alone send them flying off into the heart.  Most of these zomg ninja kill tactics would only work on absolutely perfect conditions, and even then it is chancy.  Best to stick with getting em on the ground and snapping their neck.
 
Gculk said:
Merlkir said:
Best to stick with getting em on the ground and snapping their neck.

well, the ninja guy did just that in most of his performed techniques. The jiu jitsu master though (even if he speaks funny) did only that and it looked deadly as hell.
 
Merlkir said:
If I remember it right, the punch happened somewhere around solar plexus, maybe a bit above it. They said it generated so much power and impact, that it compressed the chest more than a car crash at 50 mph. From the compression (If I remembered correctly) the sternum cracked and the heart collapsed.
Cracking the sternum is fairly common. It's between the heart and lungs though so hitting them there won't do much good unless you can move it one way or the other.

Gculk said:
  When a blow on the chest substantially compresses the heart it disrupts the heartbeat giving them a free heart attack/heart failure, without the years of fast food dieting and obesity leading up to it. 

The only arrythmic disorder likely to cause death in anything less than weeks is Ventricular Tachycardia. You need electricity to induce that though. Pretty much anything else is not only survivable for some time, but incredibly common as a natural occurence.

I can't see any way a human could cause near instant death by an attack to the body, not without tools anyway. Striking the head perhaps, but not the body.

 
Archonsod said:
Merlkir said:
If I remember it right, the punch happened somewhere around solar plexus, maybe a bit above it. They said it generated so much power and impact, that it compressed the chest more than a car crash at 50 mph. From the compression (If I remembered correctly) the sternum cracked and the heart collapsed.
Cracking the sternum is fairly common. It's between the heart and lungs though so hitting them there won't do much good unless you can move it one way or the other.

Gculk said:
  When a blow on the chest substantially compresses the heart it disrupts the heartbeat giving them a free heart attack/heart failure, without the years of fast food dieting and obesity leading up to it. 

The only arrythmic disorder likely to cause death in anything less than weeks is Ventricular Tachycardia. You need electricity to induce that though. Pretty much anything else is not only survivable for some time, but incredibly common as a natural occurence.

I can't see any way a human could cause near instant death by an attack to the body, not without tools anyway. Striking the head perhaps, but not the body.

Asystole then possibly, it was one of those heart malfunctions where it just goes crazy, without a good beat until it just stops a short time later.
 
Archonsod said:
The only arrythmic disorder likely to cause death in anything less than weeks is Ventricular Tachycardia. You need electricity to induce that though. Pretty much anything else is not only survivable for some time, but incredibly common as a natural occurence.

I can't see any way a human could cause near instant death by an attack to the body, not without tools anyway. Striking the head perhaps, but not the body.

I believe when my older brother was younger he was on a softball team where a kid got hit with the softball and died. Yes it was a little kid, but im just saying a soft ball is less than a hard fist and apparantly the kid didn't look exploded or anything from the outside. it just stopped his heart.

So My oppinion is that these freek accidents do happen, so its plausible someone could train to recreat them. The second half of the conclusion is that it is not practicle for a warrior only an assassin, and even the its less practicle then say a hidden weapon.
 
Now, that sounds oddly like a story on a CSI episode.  Do you have a news link for it?
Sir Savage said:
these freek accidents do happen

Yes, and for being freak accidents, it means they aren't likely and down to chance, not something you would rely on in a fight.
 
Gculk said:
Asystole then possibly, it was one of those heart malfunctions where it just goes crazy, without a good beat until it just stops a short time later.

Yeah, that's Arrythmia. The only one that stands a chance of causing cardiac arrest is beating too fast (Tachycardia) and the only one which will kill in minutes is to do so in the ventricle, since it prevents the blood from being pumped around the arteries. Anything else the heart is not only capable of compensating for, but you won't even notice it unless someone is taking the pulse.

It's impossible to induce any kind of heart irregularity without interfering with the electrical impulses between the heart cells. A blow to the chest alone won't do that (beyond adrenaline or breathing induced changes in the victim, but such natural changes are only a problem if the heart is already defective) unless you're conducting electricity at the time. Otherwise, you'd need to kill every individual cell to stop the heart beating, which a punch isn't going to do no matter how hard it is.

Sir Savage said:
I believe when my older brother was younger he was on a softball team where a kid got hit with the softball and died.
I believe your talking absolute bull****. That story is so old it was an urban myth when I was a kid. Back then it was a cricketball and the victim died due to a fractured skull, which is at least slightly more believable. Unfortunately, there isn't a single case of death from ball impact recorded in the world to my knowledge, not without the ball causing the unfortunate to fall off a cliff or similar anyway.
 
Again I see a bit of medical mess.
Again I've knowledge in the medical field, but I absolutely don't know if it's possible to kill a man with a single punch, so it's all speculation.
Anyways error I found out:

Sternum is not between heart and lungs. A common misconception is that heart is on the left side of the body, wich is somewhat right, but only regarding heart's apex, while right atrium and ventricle a whole third of its mass reside just behind the sternum.
These pics would help understand:
heart.gif
art_cardiac_bypass_clip2.jpg

So by speculation, we could suppose it's possible to drive the sternum inside the heart, by breaking it, or just by pushing it enough to lodge his edge or point inside the ventricle.

About arhytmia... Again, it's a very complex matter. Tachycardia and Bradicardia are just two kind of arhytmy btw, there are many more, but I don' thik they really relate much with a punch, indeed.
And no, arhtmya can't be caused only by electrical high voltage stymulation. Hypercalcemia, hyponantremia, a powerful shock, there are many other causes wich may happen because of a strong trauma, or by massive death of cells.
But you don't need to mess up with heart pace to stop it from doing his work, not at all.

A large shock can overload heart inner conduction system causing a stop, long enough to provoke a cardiac arrest, wich by means of a so called "positive feedback" may furtherly aggravate itself. A shock so strong requires an impact so powerful that can be compared to falling from a 4 stories house or crashing at 50 km/hr against a wall, so I don't know if it's possible to achieve such power with just a punch. With a softboll bat or ball instead, it's possible, even if I agree that there's much urban legend about it, mostly because a youngster heart usually would recover.

Not to talk about the possibility that a powerful compression may break the coronaries: the blood vessels that oxigenate the heart itself. Destroying these vessels may cause an hemorragy that can furterly compress near vessels and deprive heart of his oxygen, causing a stroke that's really similar to the events following an arterosclerosys stroke.
Also if you have some form of arterosclerosis (wich at age of 40-50 is pretty common even withou dietetic problems, because of natural aging), some other vessels may be so stiff they break up like glass tubes causing a massive internal blood loss.

So my two cents are: probably you will damage the heart through shock, blunt trauma, piercing, or coronaric damage, after that you suffer the effect of a stroke, and if your heart is not strong enough it may furtherly damage itself, to the point of provoking a local arhytmia, wich if not compensate may spread furtherly exacerbating the effect of the blow and the damage to the myocardium, ending in furhter strokes and finally heart failure.
That in clinical terms is the effect of a strong blunt trauma to the chest, like the one caused by a big hammer blow. It's possible to achieve such power with a punch? It's up to you to speculate.
 
In Tae Kwon Do (Don't try it anyone, they're right, it does suck) we learned one useful thing: if you do it right, you can hit someone in the soft tender spot and thrust upward, causing their heart to stop because of the sudden pressure. We didn't get to demonstrate... murder and all that rot (We should be allowed to practice on the criminals sentenced to death. :grin:), but I think that it would work rather well unless the person you're fighting weighs more than you. Which is why you should go work out to gain 20 pounds of muscle. :grin:
 
Daimyo said:
It's possible to achieve such power with a punch? It's up to you to speculate.

As I said, the readings from the dummy (whose chest the guy in the docummentary punched) said the impact was like a carcrash at 50 mph. So I would say it's very much possible, if you say it could happen at a 50 kmh carcrash (which is slower..)
 
Merlkir said:
As I said, the readings from the dummy (whose chest the guy in the docummentary punched) said the impact was like a carcrash at 50 mph. So I would say it's very much possible, if you say it could happen at a 50 kmh carcrash (which is slower..)

I suppose it's different, as a 50 km/h impact on a car distributes the force on your whole body, and this can overload the heart, while all punch power is concentrated in a very narrow section of the chest. It's similar to a long fall: your maximum falling speed is capped and it's not even so fast if you fall from like 6 meters, but still when you hit concrete you die most probably of shock (not taking in consideration head injuries). I'm no expert in this field tough, so I don't want to give definitive statements, don't misunderstand me. I would prefer to leave the ball to someone more expert and knowledgeable than me.

Still I have to correct myself: even if in theory it's possible than a 50 km/hr car impact may killl you because of the shock, this is a very rare event, mostly happening to old/sick people. So I do not believe that a martial art has ever developed a technique that has a 1% chance of killing a sick aged man with a punch to his chest.
 
Daimyo said:
So by speculation, we could suppose it's possible to drive the sternum inside the heart, by breaking it, or just by pushing it enough to lodge his edge or point inside the ventricle.
Not really, smashing the sternum head on is more likely to split than break, and the muscle tissue between it and the heart will send it the other way. If you're hitting hard enough to do that in one punch, you should have enough force to literally punch through the victim.
About arhytmia... Again, it's a very complex matter. Tachycardia and Bradicardia are just two kind of arhytmy btw, there are many more, but I don' thik they really relate much with a punch, indeed.
Tachycardia is the only one which is likely to cause a near-instant cardiac arrest. The others are most likely to cause pain more than anything else, at worst you might manage to knock the victim unconcious.
And no, arhtmya can't be caused only by electrical high voltage stymulation. Hypercalcemia, hyponantremia, a powerful shock, there are many other causes wich may happen because of a strong trauma, or by massive death of cells.
Killing the cells or massive trauma is only a viable option if you've pushed your fist through the ribcage and directly attacked the heart. Any force hitting the outside has to go through the ribcage, the muscle sheathe around it and finally the protection around the heart itself. If you could punch that hard, you'd be better off smacking the head, since you should have the power to shatter the skull.
A large shock can overload heart inner conduction system causing a stop, long enough to provoke a cardiac arrest, wich by means of a so called "positive feedback" may furtherly aggravate itself.
Positive feedback is only possible if the heart cells are already defective. Shock too would rely on a defective heart, since it would need to overcome the natural checks and balances built into the heart. Even then, I doubt you'd cause a large enough shock reaction simply by punching someone in the chest.
With a softboll bat or ball instead, it's possible, even if I agree that there's much urban legend about it, mostly because a youngster heart usually would recover.
It requires a lot more force than you estimate, at least in a healthy subject. Like I said, you're relying on a heart in which the cells are either abnormal or degenerated enough to fail to send a signal at the correct pace. To be honest, if this was a danger then the victim should have been fitted with a pacemaker...
Not to talk about the possibility that a powerful compression may break the coronaries: the blood vessels that oxigenate the heart itself. Destroying these vessels may cause an hemorragy that can furterly compress near vessels and deprive heart of his oxygen, causing a stroke that's really similar to the events following an arterosclerosys stroke.
The same compression would be enough to cause collapsed lungs too, however I don't think the human body is actually capable of producing that kind of force. Maybe if you were fighting a chimpanzee, but then it's strong enough to rip your arms off and disembowel you too :lol:
Also if you have some form of arterosclerosis (wich at age of 40-50 is pretty common even withou dietetic problems, because of natural aging), some other vessels may be so stiff they break up like glass tubes causing a massive internal blood loss.
Again, a pre-existing medical condition is required. Maybe they should rename it to Touch of Euthanasia
 
Archonsod said:
Not really, smashing the sternum head on is more likely to split than break, and the muscle tissue between it and the heart will send it the other way. If you're hitting hard enough to do that in one punch, you should have enough force to literally punch through the victim.

Sorry, but here you're quite wrong. You can just smash the sternum inside the heart and/or lungs and pierce them without so much force to pierce it. This very often happens in many car/working accidents. It was one of the reasons airbags were invented.
Also, there are not  much muscular tissues behind the sternum, just a thin band of intercostals, that won't stop anything at all. That's the reason why many ribcage injuries are at risk for lung piercing, btw.


Tachycardia is the only one which is likely to cause a near-instant cardiac arrest. The others are most likely to cause pain more than anything else, at worst you might manage to knock the victim unconcious.

Where are you taking your sources from? Tachycardia is quite a normal event, it's just the heart beating faster, it happens every time you feel fear or anger, and nobody will die because of it. Atrial fibrillation may kill you, but mostly, as I already said, arhymia is just the last event of a cardiac arrest.

Killing the cells or massive trauma is only a viable option if you've pushed your fist through the ribcage and directly attacked the heart.

Again, why you say that? Are you a medic? I'm not attacking you, don't misunderstand my word or my tone, but it just seem your assumptions come from some profound knowledge on the matter, while I keep finding them wrong. Either your knowledge is even deeper than mine (and you can only be a medic then), or you're supposing things wich you don't know enough. I tried to put this sentence in the fairest way so again don't feel attacked!  :wink:

Anyways, cells may start to die because of anoxia, as an extended flogistic process, a bad reaction to the trauma, excessive compression of vases, and many, many other causes. You don't need to destroy a whole tissue to make it stop working, or at least to cause so much discomfort to drop a man outright (maybe causing his death later, if untreated). Many damages are auto-induced and that's called positive feedback, in simple words, a couple of cells die, then the ones near them die too because of various effects, and so others keep dieing etc. This won't happen in 10 seconds for sure, but you won't put up much a fight after you start suffering an heart stroke.

Any force hitting the outside has to go through the ribcage, the muscle sheathe around it and finally the protection around the heart itself. If you could punch that hard, you'd be better off smacking the head, since you should have the power to shatter the skull.

Again, this is not the case, not at all. Skull is many times more resistant than ribcage! Not only the skull itself has a better shape to deflect blows, it's much thicker (it's the thickest bone of the body, indeed), and it's a different kind of bone. Sternum is a flat bone, and its... pardon my poor english... spongy. Ribs are elastic, sure, but not thick, nor strong, they break and split quite easily too (compared to skull at least), and both ribs and sternum are articulated by fixed cartilages wich are not so much resilient against blunt traumas. Not as the skull at least, by far.

I agree you can better smack the head tough, mostly because you will snap the neck of your foe with such a blow, but you can't pierce the skull of a person with a punch, I will never believe such a monstruosity...
...Unless you're talking about Mike Tyson punching Woody Allen's skull.

Positive feedback is only possible if the heart cells are already defective.

:?: :?: Why?!?

Shock too would rely on a defective heart, since it would need to overcome the natural checks and balances built into the heart.

This is not true, healty people die of shock, but...

Even then, I doubt you'd cause a large enough shock reaction simply by punching someone in the chest.

... I agree upon that. Still, as I said, it's only speculation.

It requires a lot more force than you estimate, at least in a healthy subject. Like I said, you're relying on a heart in which the cells are either abnormal or degenerated enough to fail to send a signal at the correct pace. To be honest, if this was a danger then the victim should have been fitted with a pacemaker...


I've heard most baseball speed roam around 90 mph wich translates to 140 km/h roughly. It should suffice expecially, if the ball is large and you're a stunty.


The same compression would be enough to cause collapsed lungs too, however I don't think the human body is actually capable of producing that kind of force. Maybe if you were fighting a chimpanzee, but then it's strong enough to rip your arms off and disembowel you too :lol:

Yes that's probably true, indeed. But who do you think is stronger:

Him:
killbill2.jpg
 

Or him?
karate-chimp.jpg


...you know the answer....  :lol:


Again, a pre-existing medical condition is required. Maybe they should rename it to Touch of Euthanasia

This awarned a lol  :mrgreen:
Anyways, keep in mind that after the age of 35-40 both heart and blood vessels start to take the toll of aging, even if you're healty, and I suppose that in the time of chi-masters even on his thirties a man was quite aged.
 
Daimyo said:
Sorry, but here you're quite wrong. You can just smash the sternum inside the heart and/or lungs and pierce them without so much force to pierce it. This very often happens in many car/working accidents. It was one of the reasons airbags were invented.
Actually, airbags are designed to prevent head injuries, they're supposed to prevent you headbutting the wheel or dashboard when you stop at speed. The seatbelt prevents injury to the chest, largely by restraining the passenger in the seat (though if you're an alcoholic it can **** up your liver and kidneys). The Sternum itself is supported by the rest of the ribcage, and is a thick bone in and of itself. Part of the problem with claims that it pierces the lungs or heart is that it's a central anchor for both organs - if the sternum is pushed back, the heart and lungs will move with it (in the case of lungs however it would breach the thoracic cavity and cause a collapse, though it's unlikely that both lungs would decompress at the same time).
Also, there are not  much muscular tissues behind the sternum, just a thin band of intercostals, that won't stop anything at all. That's the reason why many ribcage injuries are at risk for lung piercing, btw.
There are, there's a sheath surrounding the entire ribcage, a second sheath behind the sternum surrounds the heart, and the thoracic cavity itself is essentially one large muscle bag. Ribcage injuries rarely pierce the actual lung, instead they break the vacuum of the cavity around the lungs, which prevents you from drawing breath. Of course, the lungs are isolated so this is rarely fatal unless the chamber around both lungs becomes damaged (in some cases it may instead fill with blood, causing the same effect but for the opposite reason).
Where are you taking your sources from? Tachycardia is quite a normal event, it's just the heart beating faster, it happens every time you feel fear or anger, and nobody will die because of it. Atrial fibrillation may kill you, but mostly, as I already said, arhymia is just the last event of a cardiac arrest.
Tachycardia isn't normal, although you're right that the heart rythym changes regularly. Arhythmic Tachycardia is defined as a condition where the heart's internal pacemaking essentially fails and the heart goes into arrest (basically, each cell of the heart begins transmitting the beat signal too fast for the heart to respond to, with the result that the heart freezes in a single state). Most other arythmic disorders would actually slow the heartbeat down, which may send you unconcious but won't cause arrest (it also happens naturally as a result of ageing of the heart tissue).
Again, why you say that? Are you a medic? I'm not attacking you, don't misunderstand my word or my tone, but it just seem your assumptions come from some profound knowledge on the matter, while I keep finding them wrong.
Not really. I trained as a medic as an RAF cadet for five years, then actually joined the RAF for a year. Got discharged before completing basic though. We spent a lot of time on injury treatment and the effects of such on the body, as you can imagine.
You don't need to destroy a whole tissue to make it stop working, or at least to cause so much discomfort to drop a man outright (maybe causing his death later, if untreated).
There's plenty of ways to do it, however the 'touch of death' necessitates doing so with only your fist, and also inducing death and not unconciousness. Hence the requirement of some means of killing all of the cells near - instantly. "Touch of agonizing pain, followed by a few hours of unconciousness and then eventual death if the subject remains untreated' sounds a lot less impressive, and certainly doesn't require any martial arts training to achieve :wink:
Again, this is not the case, not at all. Skull is many times more resistant than ribcage! Not only the skull itself has a better shape to deflect blows, it's much thicker (it's the thickest bone of the body, indeed), and it's a different kind of bone.
I know, but if you can put your fist most of the way through the torso, I can't see the skull being too much of a problem to destroy, or indeed battering it enough to cause a brain hemorrage.
The heart cells have their own 'pace making' chemistry. If a defective heart cell transmits, the surrounding cells will suppress it. It's quite fascinating from a biological perspective, although there's still a lot going on in there that we don't yet understand.
This is not true, healty people die of shock,
Usually hyperventilation or similar, not heart attack. According to psychological factors, the brain is more likely to undergo a traumatic reaction or even shut down (coma) before a healthy heart reaches the point of arrest. Looks like consciousness is more fragile than biology in that respect.
I've heard most baseball speed roam around 90 mph wich translates to 140 km/h roughly. It should suffice expecially, if the ball is large and you're a stunty.
Yeah, but the ribcage itself is one of the body's natural shock absorbers. You've also got contact area, a baseball is rounded and comparatively soft, the majority of the force of the collision is most likely to be transferred to the ball than the body.
Anyways, keep in mind that after the age of 35-40 both heart and blood vessels start to take the toll of aging, even if you're healty, and I suppose that in the time of chi-masters even on his thirties a man was quite aged.
Actually, life expectancy in China was quite high for most of it's history, probably a result of diet (lots of rice and similar cereals, not so much red meat), plus advanced (well, comparitively) medical knowledge. Like I said though, it's still more a touch of Euthanasia than a touch of death :lol:
 
[/quote]
I believe your talking absolute bull****. That story is so old it was an urban myth when I was a kid. Back then it was a cricketball and the victim died due to a fractured skull, which is at least slightly more believable. Unfortunately, there isn't a single case of death from ball impact recorded in the world to my knowledge, not without the ball causing the unfortunate to fall off a cliff or similar anyway.
[/quote]

Getting hit with a base ball and dying doesn't sound impossible to me.... And back to my story; the ball stopped his heart, I don't know how or why but I know it's not impossible and your medical terms(Which probubly didn't even exist in the middle ages :wink:) don't mean im wrong, it means you really want to be right. Nothing youve said can be proven either unless you can dig up references to the studys of crap hitting people repeatedly in the chest.

And as an administrator I'd think your online etiquette would be better. Maybe saying like "I dissagree with you" or "I do not believe you"
Oh well, thanks anyways
 
Sir Savage said:
Getting hit with a base ball and dying doesn't sound impossible to me....
It's never happened in Pro-Baseball, where the ball moves a lot quicker and KO and concussion have been known, do you really think a bunch of kids are going to manage it?
And as an administrator I'd think your online etiquette would be better. Maybe saying like "I dissagree with you" or "I do not believe you"
Oh well, thanks anyways
You aint from arounds here, is ya? :lol:
 
Sir Savage said:
And as an administrator I'd think your online etiquette would be better. Maybe saying like "I dissagree with you" or "I do not believe you"
Oh well, thanks anyways
Arch is allright, wait till you meet "The Lamb From Hell"  :razz:
 
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