Enhancing Horses (updated 26th Jan 2007)

Until we worry about the humans in the game dying from 2+ javelins to the chest (or a couple throwing axes to the head) I wouldn't worry about the damage model allowing the horse to die too quickly.

Ever see the amount of javelins that a bull (which is tougher than a horse no doubt) can take?

first things you missed/ second will be touched on in a bit-

horse armor/equipment- shouldn't you be able to put armor on your horse?

horse weapons *not so much weapons but armor with spikes that increases charging damage*

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second- all this seems too much. really I think the system should be simple and easy to impliment.

First- horse dodge should be out because using AI is probably not a great idea when the rider is on the horse *a horse dodge button would be fine though*

I think that the basics should be implimented first- which would be

calling your horse

stats-
horse charge (damage from charging) this would be calculated from armor/items/str/and speed
speed (max speed) armor and rider weight would reduce this
strength (affects stamina/hp) this would reduce armor and rider weight penalties- but never get rid of them.

horse 'skills' should be (this would work along or replace the riding skill)

turning/endurance/acceleration/courage/loyalty

turning- obvious
endurance- decreases speed of stamina and hp reduction -less likely to be injured
acceleration- speeds up to a gallop faster *eventually a kick off*
courage- rears up less often when it runs into enemy units- runs away/rears up less often when hit- whistling for your horse will cause it to come to you even when you have enemies around you *mixed with loyalty*
loyalty- will not allow enemy AI to mount it/ will run over enemies to defend you- will come to you when you whistle even with enemies around *mixed with courage*

loyalty increases with the more battles won without the horse being injured *but you must actively use the horse -no setting him down in a corner and walking away*

courage increases with the more horse charge damage total done

accelerations increases just by riding the horse

endurance increases naturally- but slightly faster with damage taken

turning just by riding in battles- none of these skills would be viewable- they would run in the background and increase naturally just by using the horse a lot
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even this system is a bit broken- honestly though it should be kept simple. While I do wish I could stand up on the horses back launching perfectly aimed arrows like some hero- I also want to keep the game balanced.

*although some light armor benefits would be nice...like actually acrobatic benefits-like jumping off your horse while its running and tumbling- but I know thats not the style of this game : )*

The most basic incongruity for me is the amount of weight that 'lighter' horses can carry, and still move at full speed. There's something really wrong with a fully armored knight on a courser or steppe horse. Also, given the weight of the rider, and the armor already presumed on the heavier ones, they may travel too quickly, at least in relation to the other horses.

ShadowWolf:
The initial suggestion was relatively simple to understand, (although not easy to impliment) and use. (which is most of the first post). Once everyone else started adding in, and suggesting other things, the thread grew. What you see are the consolidated horse suggestions from the majority of the suggestions on these forums, most of which are temporary replacements for other more in-depth ones : (the initial enhancing horses, first part of the post is basically my initial suggestion, which is very similar to what you have modelled yourself, although it rotates more around stamina system :)

Horse armor is already on the list :

As for weapons, this was discussed previously in another thread, and a few people agreed that realistically (and practically) it would not be too useful because a cavalry charge requires horses to be close to each other, and horses to jump over / avoid other fallen horses in front of them (although this is not the case in the game because the enemy archers would rather try to hit the rider).
However, this could go well if customised armor for horses was to be implimented, providing it does have some of the above mentioned disadvantages.. :


Antique Futon:
Yes, a horse can take two javelins in the chest / neck etc. however obviously it would hurt, and the horse may fall due to the initial shock of pain (which brings me to the 'response to pain' suggestion), but because horses are able to tolerate pain very well, it would not kill or injure the horse to the extent of 'unusability on the battlefield'. Obviously however, bleeding would be a big problem, since the horse would eventually bleed to death, although it would not be as quick as you would imagine.
I haven't tested it obviously, but there have been incidents where horses have had a torn artery, and stood in the pool of blood for 12 hours before anyone went to check on them, and there have been countless number of cases of horses impaling themselves on objects in paddocks, without being noticed / treated for up to days.

As for breaking a leg, yes I believe that most war-horses would be abandoned on the field should that happen. It is however possible to cure the leg (just the same as with a human) by providing proper treatment and care. More serious than a broken bone in the leg, are breaks / cuts in the flexor tendons, because even if those heal, the tendon's elasticity is lost because the break is replaced with a scar tissue, which is also not as strong as the actual tendon, meaning it is very easy to snap again under even light stress.

Its not easy to break a horse's leg, but the game is somewhat strange at the moment (you can jump your horse down from a cliff and he survives, but jumping over a rock on a downward hill will cause the horse to take damage?) regarding this. As for trees / rocks, normally a horse would not run into them if you ask him to, but would try to jump over (rock - not trees hehe) or dodge the obsticle. Horses could also stop relatively fast (if they want to), although yes there are some horses who would go on regardless if it means suicide. I have personally been on a horse who galloped at full speed into a metal gate - (don't ask..) - which fortunately was only secured by a thin rope (bailing thwine) which broke from the impact. Horse imerged with a bruised nose - just to point out that they are not all that fragile..

As an actual horse rider, I can say I love most of the action in the game. Only a few things stand out to me as odd, and many of them have already been covered by other posters.

However, one thing I haven't seen discussed is 'staying on.'

Sometimes you fall off a horse in real life. I'd suggest possibilities of falling off from a good hit, or sudden stops while leaning in the opposite direction, or when plunging headfirst down a steep grade of hill. Sometimes I feel like all of our characters and their opponents in M&B are "The Man From Snowy River", and that jars me out of the sense of realism that much of the game provides.

---Brett

True, but wouldn't you admit that falling off a horse in real life is extremely rare? :
However, this could be intergrated into a riding skill of player vs required riding skill of horse. For example, allow players to ride a skill 4 horse even if they have 0 horse-riding skill, - BUT the player would fall off almost every step : This would decrease gradually as the player's riding skill is increased, and disappear completely once the player's riding skill overtakes the required skill for that horse..

So using the above mentioned example, a player who has riding skill of 3, would be able to stay on a courser (and lower) without falling off (req skill = 2), will very rarely fall off a hunter (req skill = 3) and would often go off a stubborn warhorse req skill = 5). Realistically, it would allow players to ride a horse below their riding skill with ease, while struggling in riding one that requires a higher skill.

This is about as realistic as I could think atm, since its also true that once a rider gets used to their horse (and the horse to their rider) in real life, the chances of them falling off are very close to 0 (although obviously anything is possible), or once someone has had a lot of experience and can communicate very well with most horses they ride. I'm sure you would agree and know what I'm talking about.
- Please discuss, I would wait before updating original post incase someone has a better idea :

As for being knocked off the horse with a hard blow, I would personally think that it is very close to being similar with the above.. You come across horses who would shift themselves in the run to prevent you falling off, and some who would be harder to fall from than your own two legs : Obviously a very hard knock would easily rip you out of the seat, but as it stands now there is no way for a rider to dodge such knocks, and horses don't behave the way they would in reality, so it would be a good suggestion, once at least one of those is developed further :

If falling off was to be implemented, then the ability to ride horses for which you lack skill should also be. That way, if you are riding above your level, you might have a decent chance. This should apply in the arena, as well.

Question: how reasonable does it seem that warhorses require more skill to ride than coursers?

Can't really answer that because I personally never rode a warhorse :
I would suppose though, that warhorses would be trained to be even more responsive to rider cues, and to attacks (ie. counter attacks), so in a way its easier, but in a way its harder..

I would say that it would depend more on whether you have just got a horse that you don't know and who was trained by somebody else, or whether you have taught that horse everything he knows, and have been riding him for a good while..

A tiny add-on

As mentioned in another thread by Volk - horses in MB don't exactly "gallop". How about adding a "toggle" button which allows a horse to initiate galloping. Downside would be that they cannot maintain this speed for too long since AFAIK horses tire rather fast, and specially if weighted down by a man + armor.

In addition - since I still find couched lances being overkills (due to lances not breaking), how about having it so that you cannot couch your lance unless you're galloping - or have the couched damage reduced for current max speeds while significantly boosting it when galloping?

Do mind, the horse galloping speed would have to be significantly higher, but on the other hand any mounted unit will more or less be forced to ride straight on with very limited turning abilities since I doubt that a horse can turn that well whilst charging head on. Upside is that you'll reach the enemy quite fast and deliver significant shock damage.

It looks like gallopong to me, how is it not galloping?

Volkier said:

True, but wouldn't you admit that falling off a horse in real life is extremely rare? :

Click to expand...

That may be the case when taking a horse out for a nice ride in the country.  You're somewhat more likely to be unhorsed if you're hit by a javelin or your horse gets impales on a wall of pikes.  Also, the game is currently very difficult for players who wish to remain on foot (which should be a valid option).  Making fighters likely to fall off if they or the horse take a significant hit would help balance out cavalry vulnerabilities with infantry vulnerabilities, I think.

Also, I wonder whether it might be possible to make horses fall if they're on extremely steep slopes?  It does seem a bit daft when they can walk sideways along a cliff!

Ingolifs said:

It looks like gallopong to me, how is it not galloping?

Click to expand...

Well, it certainly doesn't feel like it, not with the max speed. A good horse would be at least twice as fast when in full gallop.

Horses in M&B currently do a fast canter, but do not gallop.

A horse, who is fit and has been trained, could gallop for a few hours with a rider on his back, although not at the maximum flat out speed, and the horse is very likely to develop several problems immedeately after that.

Galloping, currently unfortunately would not make sense to be implimented, because the battlefield size is not sufficient :

Regarding the falling off argument, I still would say that it is not that likely to happen to a good match of horse + rider under combat situation.. If you want proof, feel free to watch mounted police in a riot next time on TV : (they don't get hit with javelins, but they do get hit with other relatively heavy objects)..
Obviously, someone who has been injured to the extent of fainting due to pain, would fall off, but so would they if they where on foot. I see no problems implimenting this to function as a disadvantage of trying to ride a horse requiring a higher riding skill than what the player has, but not as a permanent defect. Plenty of things can happen to anyone, anywhere :

As for horseman vs footman argument, well for one horses DO give a major advantage in melee.. And there are several ways of stopping them currently in game, which involves arrows and spears. Further enhancements to infantry, such as improved AI and formations (especially a spear / pikemen formation vs cavalry charge) in my oppinion, would naturally balance this out relatively close to what it is like in reality :

As for steep slopes, define steep? : I know what you are getting at, and it would actually be nice if you couldn't jump your horse off a cliff safely as you do now. The angle of the slope could simply be the same as the angle that allows horses to climb up on. Anything higher will force the horse to slide down, with practical and realistic disadvantages :

Good to see this finally got its own sticky. 

Rah!  A serious discussion of horses!  I'm in heaven.

I would definately like people to be dismountable.  It is a real risk - people seldom fall of while travelling, sure, but they do fall off when whacked in the head with a great flanged mace.  Also, in 1274 the Count of Chalon attempted to wrestle Edward I (of England) of his by main force in a tournament, but Edward, being a big man, rode on and dragged the Count off his own horse instead.  Horses can also be knocked over by other, bigger horses, or founder on stuff on the ground.

Anna Comnenana fanmously remarked that a Frank in the saddle could bore through the walls of Babylon, but this was because the Frankish empahsis on staying in the saddle under any and all circumstances; it was a prized and practiced skill to keep the seat.


There is an interesting articel here on "Modelling the Joust" which has some interesting implications, although as a piece it does not look 100% complete to me: http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/Modeling_the_Joust.pdf 

The central argument is that the optimum strike point is just under the left shoulder, as this imposes the maximum torque on the pivot point an the hips, both vertically and laterally.  This perhapos explains the presence of middle-aged men on the battlefield, as with a big belly and lower centre of gravity they will be much harder to dislodge, while a young man with a V shaped swordsmans build is proportionally weaker.

Interesting article.. Will finish reading the rest of the 70 pages when I can :
Regarding horses being knocked down, its already mentioned in the initial suggestion post. As for being knocked off the horse, I don't see anything wrong with a chance of being knocked off when you get hit by a couched lance (and survive) head on from another rider, but normal attacks would really be slashing / cutting, rather than impact. Obviously you may still fall off due to shock from the pain, but in real life, you don't exactly have 'hit points being reduced' either.. If the hit is painful enough to force you into shock / faint, you would normally end up being dead, not with some 'hit points' left ::\

So if you think about it in that way, you ALREADY knock people off the horse with a blunt couched lance, (jousting lance / staff) by making them uncontious / faint from pain / whatever you want to call it :

Having a blunt hammer for example, being swung at a rider on a horse, would unseat the rider, but ONLY if the wielder is able to hold on through the impact, and unless I'm mistaken, it would be more likely that the footman would loose hold of the hammer, rather than the rider loosing hold of the horse, if you think about it ::\

Obviously it has been done before, and it is possible, but as mentioned earlier, normally that would involve the rider getting a massive pain shock, normally fainting, unless like you said, the two riders try to wrestle each other from their horses (as in what Eddie did to Chalon :)

Once again however, it could be a very interesting idea to include falling off as part of riding a horse that has a higher / equal riding skill requirement than that of what the player has, so if anyone else wants to have a go at the model, it would be great..

Currently, I could only think (as mentioned in a previous post) of something like:

Horse riding skill requirement > Rider riding skill, -> Rider falls off often
Horse riding skill requirement = Rider riding skill, -> Rider falls off very rarely, under extreme circumstances
Horse riding skill requirement < Rider riding skill, -> Rider never falls off


Making it even more simple - according to damage

Horse riding skill requirement > Rider riding skill, -> Rider falls off if takes more than 5 damage
Horse riding skill requirement = Rider riding skill, -> Rider falls off if takes more than 25 damage
Horse riding skill requirement < Rider riding skill, -> Rider falls off it takes more than 50 damage (which would normally mean a couched lance that doesn't kill 
                                                                      you, or a very very very good hit :)

Additional skill could also be implimented (which is optional with the above model), that would increase the chance of staying on.. (For example, Each point of skill provides a 5% chance of staying on, personal skill, maximum of 50%)

If anyone else wants to have a go at making a simple-to-impliment model, that would be great : (if not I'll put this up in the initial suggestion)

if horse nock off is implimented make it hard to do- the last thing I want to do is -----

I get on my horse start riding- piddly club hits me for 2 damage- I fall off
get destroyed by the ground units who have all got in line to take a shot at me.

or better

I get on my horse- bolt hits me- I fall off
I get on my horse again- guy hits me with a club I fall off
I kill the guy and get on my horse again- lance hits me lightly- I fall off
I shoot the guy with my x-bow *headshot* - get on my horse- black knight kills me while I am mounting

Great ideas for getting knocked off your horse, Volkier. One thing I would consider, though, is that no matter how much riding skill you have, if you get hit hard enough/get clotheslined with a blunt object, you will get knocked off your horse.

True, but I will once again repeat, that in order for that to happen, the person holding the blunt object must be strong enough to hold on to that object, which would be a LOT harder than for the rider to hold on to his horse : Think about it..
And also, that is why I still suggested for a possible knock-off if the player takes massive damage :

Anyway adding in the following suggestion to the initial post for now ::\

Riding Being knocked off the horse This would function as described below:
    *** Restriction of riding skill is removed, meaning a player with any riding skill can ride a horse with any riding skill requirement.
    *** Riding skill still provides a bonus to the speed / maneurability of the horse.
    *** Riding skill now will provide a penalty to the speed / maneurability if the rider's skill is below the horse's requred skill.

Falling off the horse, would be possible if the rider's skill is the same and/or below that of the horse's required skill, and when the player is hit. Simple model:

    *** Rider skill < horse requirement, --> Rider falls off if they take 5-10 damage
    *** Rider skill = horse requirement, --> Rider falls off if they take 25-30 damage
    *** Rider skill > horse requirement, --> Rider falls off if they take 55+ damage

Using this system as an example, a player who has a riding skill of 1, and is riding a charger, would be knocked off easily with most hits. A player who has a riding skill of 3, and is riding a hunter, would take most hits encountered during combat, but would still be knocked off if they are hit hard enough with a heavy axe / headshot. The same player, who would have 4+ riding skill, and riding the same hunter, would stay on throughout almost any hit. However, they would still be knocked off if they are hit for over 55 damage, which would normally mean a direct couched lance from the enemy, or something very hard..

Rider Skill Impact resistance - Each point of this skill gives a 3% chance of resisting the knock-down impact and gives +1 point to how much damage a player needs to take, in order to be knocked off. This would work in par with the above mentioned suggestion.