SP - Economy Workshops and Caravans

[Zorion_no]

I might have better luck if I can engineer a situation where I have a safe corner, such as the Aserai lands, to be a part of or rule since I find wars are far rarer and tamer if your country has a good position. At any rate, I expect to have to shut them down if I want to join, say the Northern or Southern Empire, and wait until I or they have the northeast/southeast secure before setting them back up.

Then again, I remember, last December, playing for Battania before breaking away being gentler than I read about so I have no idea what the real normal is. Maybe people's kingdoms being at constant war isn't the norm but happens often enough to be complained about. I didn't have that problem last time until I had conquered 1/3rd of the constant since, at that point, everybody who could declared war on me as if I tripped over an invisible threshold.


Thank you for the clarification. I'll have to make sure I don't leave a lot of uncollected stuff in the Warehouses since I assume they'll be gone if my properties get sacked by the victorious army. I've made a habit of building my workshops in Vlandia since Galend, Jaculan, Ocs Hall, etc. are very safe cities as far as war is concerned and Warehouses let me dump whatever they need into their pockets so they don't need to rely on local resources. Combined with shutting down the competition, I'm averaging 700-1,200 per monopoly per day (I have 3 Velvets but they're making half to one third as much as the single Oil Press and Pottery Shop, indicating I'd probably make more passive income if I shut 1 or 2 of my Velvet Dyeworks down) so I'm now a multi-millionaire with as much money (and more passive income) then I had when I was a monarch ruling half the continent lol. I have screenshots I took over my past 1.5 playthroughs which shows how well I'm presently doing as a mercantile-focused character, so I feel like I finally figured out Workshops in Bannerlord.


That depends on your patience. At the moment, I agree with you if your intent in Workshops/Caravans is as a supplement to sustaining a professional army like in Warband, because you'll make practically nothing from Workshops and barely enough to cover daily costs with Caravans, but if you dominate the markets so you're the sole product maker (or have no more than 1-2 shops competition, globally) you'll make insane amounts of money (not as insane as smithing, of course, but comparable to winning battles as a warlord/monarch without the risks) and can casually throw cash around after a few years.

I'm tempted to lay low and wait for my 4 kids to grow up so I can send my daughters off running caravans while my son and his bride-to-be get busy making grandkids lol. I may do that if getting Eveything Has a Price takes that long since I love the idea of buying my way to power and prestige.

It's gratifying to be wealthier as a merchant prince than I was as a sultan ruling the entire continent lol. At the moment, my 5 Workshops are producing over 3,000 per day on average (3 Velvets averaging ~350 per day while the Oil averages ~900 and the Pottery ~700) while 6 Caravans average 500 per each or 3,000 per day (usually at least one of them has a bad day but it can spike up, now and then, leading to insane profits both per individual caravan and in total) for a gross average income of 6,000 per day by year 1092.

However, I do think average profits for Workshops in particular could use a boost--maybe by a factor of 2 so that 100-200 per day is the bare minimum passive income you can expect and 1000+ if you're doing what I'm doing.

Try to get profitable workshops in Sturgia without micromanageing them(read some will be, like linen in Omor, and again while they have dips, the Wine will get 200+ atleast on its own roughly).

And thats the problem you touch on though with 1/3rd as you describe it with wars and endless wars.
Bascially if you look at the Kingdome clan you will notice that there is a "powerlevel" where say they all is at start 5000, but decline or grow pending on how they fare in war.
Roughly speaking if you have 10000 power, which means you've taken a fair chunk of the world - you will be locked in war most of the time.
This can start as low as 7500, and beyond 15000 you will know nothing but war.
Basically if you start to loose power on the other hand, and your back to the starter lands more or less, you may see dips in war.

Anti-snowball effect they made, but it works well in AI vs AI control, but vs player it gets annoying/frustrating/tanks the fun as you got no downtime to do other things if you want to keep the current power level, not to mention that player agency also have too big an effect, so it is counterproductive and ends up just speedballing the snowball..(this is a rant for other threads).

Overall for war, I think that Aserai in general is "shieleded" much more from war though, due to the way the land is initally, so if they loose some land, typically the other factions stop after awhile, then Aserai come back with a vengance and take all the lost and then some.


The issue of the constant wars also hurts makeing profitable workshops just isnt enough trade comeing in delivering the mats needed, and there is no profit in the good they naturally produce, or not since Taleworld hit some workshops like smithing and its conssumption of rawmaterials way too heavy handed(I still cant belive no one raised concerns about that in testing internally and how it just ruins it).

No doubt you got the mechanics down by the way you describe thing, so what I think you should do though, is just make hardsaves and experiment, see what works or not and how the fallout is from things.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

Try to get profitable workshops in Sturgia without micromanageing them(read some will be, like linen in Omor, and again while they have dips, the Wine will get 200+ atleast on its own roughly).

I'll try, but I'll definitely micro it since that means you could make stupid insane money if you did and I LOVE making money in video games lol. I have noticed Sturigans pay more for alcohol despite the international surplus of it, so it gave me some hints...

And thats the problem you touch on though with 1/3rd as you describe it with wars and endless wars.
Bascially if you look at the Kingdome clan you will notice that there is a "powerlevel" where say they all is at start 5000, but decline or grow pending on how they fare in war.
Roughly speaking if you have 10000 power, which means you've taken a fair chunk of the world - you will be locked in war most of the time.
This can start as low as 7500, and beyond 15000 you will know nothing but war.
Basically if you start to loose power on the other hand, and your back to the starter lands more or less, you may see dips in war.

Anti-snowball effect they made, but it works well in AI vs AI control, but vs player it gets annoying/frustrating/tanks the fun as you got no downtime to do other things if you want to keep the current power level, not to mention that player agency also have too big an effect, so it is counterproductive and ends up just speedballing the snowball..(this is a rant for other threads).

I figured it was like this. I am going to guess 15,000 is the "tripwire" because I recall having over 10,000 being very comfortable, letting me pick when I want to fight and who with hardly anyone having the guts to start a war with my created country.

I'm not sure how I feel about the anti-snowball, to be frank, since it depends on how Kingdom Destruction fixes the main thing I found annoying--my home territories being ravaged by nobles-turned-terrorists. There seems to be fewer rebel clans being recruited as well, so it might be easier to curb the endless war and let your vassals handle the front while you chill out for a bit. I want to see for myself since I enjoyed it when it was tough and only felt fatigued once I was in a position where lasting defeat was no longer a concern and my A.I. and their A.I. were trading castles/cities.

I apologize for potentially derailing the main topic with this tangent, since I believe Workshops need a financial buff and this issue could derail discussion on the issue of Workshops.

The issue of the constant wars also hurts makeing profitable workshops just isnt enough trade comeing in delivering the mats needed, and there is no profit in the good they naturally produce, or not since Taleworld hit some workshops like smithing and its conssumption of rawmaterials way too heavy handed(I still cant belive no one raised concerns about that in testing internally and how it just ruins it).

No doubt you got the mechanics down by the way you describe thing, so what I think you should do though, is just make hardsaves and experiment, see what works or not and how the fallout is from things.

I found it actually made Trade super easy. With that one complete playthrough I mentioned, I was (unintentionally) power leveling Trade (before the XP requirements were alleviated) since you could buy X (like Grain) for super cheap (5-6) and then sell it over the border at a premium (like, 20-30+ at a slow decline per unit). This applied to luxuries as well. I believe if I actually were to use Workshops effectively in such an economy I'd made even more money than I am presently (seeing my velvets sell as high as 1,200 per unit from the stock I hoard to sell abroad is a wonderful experience). Passive income would probably suffer since only neutral caravans could cross through, but active income would skyrocket.

I'm on PS4 so play-testing is probably a lot slower than it would be on PC with console commands to speed things up.

I don't think raw materials are in shortage--quite the opposite, produced goods are in excess or, at least, not in as much demand. I have absolutely no trouble buying hundreds of Raw Silks, Clays, Olives, etc. even before I cornered the market on their products.

I "heard" that Smithies and Wood Workshops don't require raw material like other shops do (or, as much) as a stray rumor when listening to YouTube videos on economy (not sure if it was Strat Gaming from a couple years ago testing it or somebody else, though) and I'm testing that by seeing if the Velvet Dyeworks/Oil Presses/Pottery Shops I convert to Smithies/Wood Workshops get converted back to Velvet/Oil/Pottery or not. If they don't, then they're the ideal method of cornering and shrinking the market on a given produced good. If they do, then I'm following Strat Gaming's tip of switching the shop to something else locally produced to delay their reversion.

 

[Zorion_no]

I found it actually made Trade super easy. With that one complete playthrough I mentioned, I was (unintentionally) power leveling Trade (before the XP requirements were alleviated) since you could buy X (like Grain) for super cheap (5-6) and then sell it over the border at a premium (like, 20-30+ at a slow decline per unit). This applied to luxuries as well. I believe if I actually were to use Workshops effectively in such an economy I'd made even more money than I am presently (seeing my velvets sell as high as 1,200 per unit from the stock I hoard to sell abroad is a wonderful experience). Passive income would probably suffer since only neutral caravans could cross through, but active income would skyrocket.

I'm on PS4 so play-testing is probably a lot slower than it would be on PC with console commands to speed things up.

I don't think raw materials are in shortage--quite the opposite, produced goods are in excess or, at least, not in as much demand. I have absolutely no trouble buying hundreds of Raw Silks, Clays, Olives, etc. even before I cornered the market on their products.

I "heard" that Smithies and Wood Workshops don't require raw material like other shops do (or, as much) as a stray rumor when listening to YouTube videos on economy (not sure if it was Strat Gaming from a couple years ago testing it or somebody else, though) and I'm testing that by seeing if the Velvet Dyeworks/Oil Presses/Pottery Shops I convert to Smithies/Wood Workshops get converted back to Velvet/Oil/Pottery or not. If they don't, then they're the ideal method of cornering and shrinking the market on a given produced good. If they do, then I'm following Strat Gaming's tip of switching the shop to something else locally produced to delay their reversion.

I'm on pc, and the input of smity = Iron Ore, and Wood workshops use raw wood.
The problem is that on pc they upped the cost from similar to all other rawmaterials as in 2 units pr day, to now 6 units pr day.

Which means that the smithy I had in Varnapol, and I removed the competeing smithy and woodshop in the towns nearby - it would still end up with shortage in the smity, as traders bougth all the iron ore..
Sturgia, the cost for the ore went down to 30 pr unit, meanwhile all other nations the iron ore cost was up to 80, so all traders bougth the town clean.
I just bough the iron from the nearby village(attached) and ended up with an ok profit.(or atleast no stop due to shortages).

And yes for a player to use the constant war and flipping of towns, its great for leveling up trade if you play it right.
Example have a ton of mats the town normally require or have "shortage on" and after a siege the prices are cranked through the roof etc, you'll be makeing a killing for sure.

The problem is that in some "poor kingdomes" like Sturgia who is at war constant and with many factions they dont get traders that arrive in their cities. So you'll often find those cities "starveing" or in shortage of most commodites.

I only know how it affects Sturgia in general so badly, cause I'm "Sturgia for life player".

And its true some raw materials isnt in shortage for sure, like grain typically or clay etc, some mats though like Iron ore generally is in shortage all over the map.(not always, and in some cases its also cheap or gets to be it).
But the problem with that is that the caravan buy all the good typically so the towns that should have abandunce of it, ends up in shortage instead aswell.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

The problem is that on pc they upped the cost from similar to all other rawmaterials as in 2 units pr day, to now 6 units pr day.

I wonder if this might be the issue. We're both presently on the same version 1.2.7, so we should be experiencing the same version of the game. Although this might increase the market value of raw materials, it increases the costs of producing stuff which, rather than make them more expensive to cover operational costs, instead results minimal profit margins at best and continual loss at worst.

I have been working under the assumption there's too much supply, since I figured storing the raw goods in a warehouse would eliminate the cost of production. I'm not actually sure if number of units spent to make finished products vary on PS4, just that Pottery Shop goes through Clay faster than Oil Presses go through Olives and both faster than any Velvet Dyework goes through Silk; that could be due to the shops autonomously producing slower rather than costing less to make products in the first place.

Reducing global supply through monopoly works for the moment, but reducing number of raws needed to make products would work to make Workshops more solvent though it'd also diminish the value of raws (which I am finding profitable since I can make a killing buying, say Silk, from around Amprela and selling it in Vlandia or Grain from Vlandia and selling to Sturgia).

I think there's 3 ways this situation could be fixed if you're right about raw resource consumption; either (mechanically) increase demand for the finished product so that raw materials maintain high regional price variation while finished products remain consistently profitable; reduce number of materials needed, resulting in cheaper operational costs and thus greater solvency (but indirectly diminishing raw resource value); increase number of raw materials produced, deflating their local and global values and indirectly diminishing operational costs.

Of the three solutions, I believe the first would be best since I prefer a high contrast economy to speed up Trade skill growth and non-combat money making options for both casual and hardcore approaches to the economy but the second option would work fine while the third would be chancy since, in the event of war or any other disturbance, it would be mildly effective.

Oh, and my "Smithies and Wood Workshops are powered by magic so they'll never be switched by NPCs" theory is incorrect; they do eventually get switched due to bankruptcy.

 

[Zorion_no]

I wonder if this might be the issue. We're both presently on the same version 1.2.7, so we should be experiencing the same version of the game. Although this might increase the market value of raw materials, it increases the costs of producing stuff which, rather than make them more expensive to cover operational costs, instead results minimal profit margins at best and continual loss at worst.

I have been working under the assumption there's too much supply, since I figured storing the raw goods in a warehouse would eliminate the cost of production. I'm not actually sure if number of units spent to make finished products vary on PS4, just that Pottery Shop goes through Clay faster than Oil Presses go through Olives and both faster than any Velvet Dyework goes through Silk; that could be due to the shops autonomously producing slower rather than costing less to make products in the first place.

Reducing global supply through monopoly works for the moment, but reducing number of raws needed to make products would work to make Workshops more solvent though it'd also diminish the value of raws (which I am finding profitable since I can make a killing buying, say Silk, from around Amprela and selling it in Vlandia or Grain from Vlandia and selling to Sturgia).

I think there's 3 ways this situation could be fixed if you're right about raw resource consumption; either (mechanically) increase demand for the finished product so that raw materials maintain high regional price variation while finished products remain consistently profitable; reduce number of materials needed, resulting in cheaper operational costs and thus greater solvency (but indirectly diminishing raw resource value); increase number of raw materials produced, deflating their local and global values and indirectly diminishing operational costs.

Of the three solutions, I believe the first would be best since I prefer a high contrast economy to speed up Trade skill growth and non-combat money making options for both casual and hardcore approaches to the economy but the second option would work fine while the third would be chancy since, in the event of war or any other disturbance, it would be mildly effective.

Oh, and my "Smithies and Wood Workshops are powered by magic so they'll never be switched by NPCs" theory is incorrect; they do eventually get switched due to bankruptcy.

Ah so thats why they switch, that seems logical, never though of it that way, but def makes sense.

As for the workshop and consumption - I dont know if its the same as for pc but I'm asuming it is.
So if you go to the workshop tab, you will have all kind of metrics listed, and on it it should say type of rawmaterial used "Iron ore" "olives" "clay".
When you however over the materials, it should show you how much is consumed per day, this may vary abit from resource, but beside Iron ore most use 2-3 units pr day.

So lets say if you hover over the clay of your pottery it should say 3 units, while the oil, it should when you hover over olives say 2.

The numbers can if I recall properly also be with not "round numbers" so it can be 2,71 or 3,1 etc.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

Ah so thats why they switch, that seems logical, never though of it that way, but def makes sense.

As for the workshop and consumption - I dont know if its the same as for pc but I'm asuming it is.
So if you go to the workshop tab, you will have all kind of metrics listed, and on it it should say type of rawmaterial used "Iron ore" "olives" "clay".
When you however over the materials, it should show you how much is consumed per day, this may vary abit from resource, but beside Iron ore most use 2-3 units pr day.

So lets say if you hover over the clay of your pottery it should say 3 units, while the oil, it should when you hover over olives say 2.

The numbers can if I recall properly also be with not "round numbers" so it can be 2,71 or 3,1 etc.

Interesting, I didn't realize a tool tips shows more information when you hover it--I thought it was only to show me how much X and Y I have in my Warehouse. I wish this game used a more conventional spreadsheet-style U.I. so I wouldn't have to be clued in by other players and YouTube videos that the Hammer icon at the store shows local production and workshops (thanks Flesson, you're the one who pointed that out via one of your videos!) or, as of now, that the icon to the right of Inputs/Outputs would show consumption/result.

I do have the numbers; Pottery equals -2.4 Clay and +1.3 Pottery (I probably have perks messing with them); Velvet equals -0.9 Silk and +0.9 Velvet; Oil equals -3.0 Olives (lol I thought the Clay was being consumed faster) and +1.5 Oil. I have set the Velvets to hoard 50% of supply so I can both prevent deflation on the market prices and pick them up to sell abroad while my Oil and Pots are set to 25% since they produce faster than I can sell abroad in a year without compromising on my self-imposed price ranges (no less than 400 for Pots and no less than 500 for Oil or Velvet, which usually results in selling it all, or mostly all, before picking up fresh stacks).

Okay, with this information I have a clearer picture of how this ecosystem works but I'll have to mull it over with regards to the implications of which shops are the most profitable between the 3 (or in general) in a vacuum. My gut says "Velvet" because Silk is super cheap (~10 per unit around Amprela) and Velvet can sell from 800-1,200 when you corner the market whereas I usually get half that range for Pots and 2/3rds for Oil, but they probably even out overall. Then again, I have 3 Velvet shops to 1 of each for Pots and Oil, so that affects the value of actively selling Velvets since I'm competing with myself thrice as much compared to Pots and Oil lol.

Anyway, my suggestion to the developers to fix the Workshop economy is to increase consumer demand for finished products to cover the costs of production. This way the raw goods will maintain their current (good) values while the finished products will elevate in value, making both casual and hardcore usage of Workshops viable and desirable.

 

[Zorion_no]

Anyway, my suggestion to the developers to fix the Workshop economy is to increase consumer demand for finished products to cover the costs of production. This way the raw goods will maintain their current (good) values while the finished products will elevate in value, making both casual and hardcore usage of Workshops viable and desirable.

This.