Why Is This Forum Section So Toxic?

[Mad Vader]

People were spamming "Bannerlord release when?" as a meme everywhere (on streams on twitch), and eventually they started saying it's never going to be released, bannerlord is a lie etc. "I hope my grandchildren will be able to play bannerlord", etc. But besides the obvious memes, I remember it clearly that before the release was announced people were starting to be negative and say they give up on the game. I remember toxic comments starting to pour once people's patience "reached their limits", so probably devs saw that people are the end of the rope and decided let's release beta, then early access, since it's starting to look bad. Before that though, they kept saying they don't want to give a release date, yet then they complied because of the pressure. It wasn't really imaginary at all;

I agree with that version of events. Fan pressure DID make the premature EA happen, but it was still Taleworlds that made that choice.
But it's not an excuse in any way for the state of Bannerlord, then or now.
A more decent move by TW would have been to admit that they are behind schedule, calculate a realistic EA/release date and make a statement on a tentative date. People were mostly frustrated because there wasn't ANY deadline or end in sight. TW didn't do this because they are strangely incapable of estimating the work needed to get a battle simulator game done. And they are supposed to be the experts in this and did nothing else for more than a decade. So, don't say it's impossible to know how long it takes to get something done.

 

[Younes]

there doesn't have to be a gun pointing at your head for you to feel pressured. Even an exaggerated hype and expectations can be pressure. Even on a small scale - someone expecting a lot from you like your parents can be a lot of pressure - you know in some parts of Asia, because of the amount of pressure and expectations parents have from their children, it oftentime leads to even suicide right? Maybe you're underestimating the effect pressure can have. People were spamming "Bannerlord release when?" as a meme everywhere (on streams on twitch), and eventually they started saying it's never going to be released, bannerlord is a lie etc. "I hope my grandchildren will be able to play bannerlord", etc. But besides the obvious memes, I remember it clearly that before the release was announced people were starting to be negative and say they give up on the game. I remember toxic comments starting to pour once people's patience "reached their limits", so probably devs saw that people are the end of the rope and decided let's release beta, then early access, since it's starting to look bad. Before that though, they kept saying they don't want to give a release date, yet then they complied because of the pressure. It wasn't really imaginary at all;

The pressure you describe isn't the community pressure, it's financial pressure. Now that they banked up they are in no rush to release the game and taking their time.

 

[AndrewArt]

The pressure you describe isn't the community pressure, it's financial pressure. Now that they banked up they are in no rush to release the game and taking their time.

They've always been taking their time, though. Hence 8 years, right? And taking their time is not necessarily a bad thing. A bad thing would be if they gave up on developing the game completely. When we buy early access games and "the developers get their cookie", many times the motivation for developing the product fades, many abandon their games. You can see this PTSD in the gaming community quite clearly. After buying Valheim too, people were already starting to express their fears from the first weeks - "congrats on the success, but keep developing the game please" - somewhere around the steam posts. I too experienced this fear because I really liked the game and was really hoping the development continues fervently, to make a really good game.

Some players expressed the same fears with Bannerlord, saying the developers abandoned Bannerlord because they got their money - yet they're still pumping updates on the regular, so that is false. Slowly or not, what matters is that the game isn't abandoned in the end. Also, maybe we won't get all that we wish for Bannerlord, but it's still far from a bad game imo. By the end of EA I'm sure it will have good performance, and a little more content at least (I'm still curious and unsure of what they plan on adding for the late game/+ more side activities to do during peacetime, but we really need something in this area before full release).

Other than that we'll also have better modding support, satisfying a wide array of players needs indirectly. For me the game is overall pretty good unmodded already, and I feel I've got my money's worth so far. But if you don't feel that, just don't forget all that Bannerlord will offer. Not every game has this amount of potential and moddability. This is still mount and blade we're talking about, and we know that it can get pretty creative with the overhauls and all (which now will look better than ever). For a native version of the game (SP), it just realistically needs a bit more content (especially lategame and during peacetime) and some polish. For MP it's a whole other debate, but I'm waiting to see if and how they will satisfy the majority of players needs. Yet even if they don't introduce the warband system of choosing your own equipment (which many players have been asking for), a modder will surely do that in the future (custom servers). So, no matter the debate of what is better for the game or what the game needs, everything will settle in time in some way or another - officially or through modding, so the game still will offer plenty for most players. All of those reasons are why I think some of the negativity concerning the game is exaggerated, even if some of the criticism is indeed valid. Personally, I will wait until further development and we will see in the future if people (and myself) are (still) satisfied or not, and that's pretty much it. It really doesn't need to be more complicated than this. We don't need all the daily negativity, attacks on developers, etc... And sometimes it would be nice if we could have a positive post without people instantly jumping the OP about why he's wrong, when that is his perspective just as yours is yours. So, simplify things. Play the game if you enjoy it, give feedback (in a constructive way) if you may, or don't and wait until further development; It just makes life simpler, and the forum a little brighter, and we could all use that from time to time.

 

[Younes]

They've always been taking their time, though. Hence 8 years, right? And taking their time is not necessarily a bad thing. A bad thing would be if they gave up on developing the game completely. When we buy early access games and "the developers get their cookie", many times the motivation for developing the product fades, many abandon their games. You can see this PTSD in the gaming community quite clearly. After buying Valheim too, people were already starting to express their fears from the first weeks - "congrats on the success, but keep developing the game please" - somewhere around the steam posts. I too experienced this fear because I really liked the game and was really hoping the development continues fervently, to make a really good game.

Some players expressed the same fears with Bannerlord, saying the developers abandoned Bannerlord because they got their money - yet they're still pumping updates on the regular, so that is false. Slowly or not, what matters is that the game isn't abandoned in the end. Also, maybe we won't get all that we wish for Bannerlord, but it's still far from a bad game imo. By the end of EA I'm sure it will have good performance, and a little more content at least (I'm still curious and unsure of what they plan on adding for the late game/+ more side activities to do during peacetime, but we really need something in this area before full release).

Other than that we'll also have better modding support, satisfying a wide array of players needs indirectly. For me the game is overall pretty good unmodded already, and I feel I've got my money's worth so far. But if you don't feel that, just don't forget all that Bannerlord will offer. Not every game has this amount of potential and moddability. This is still mount and blade we're talking about, and we know that it can get pretty creative with the overhauls and all (which now will look better than ever). For a native version of the game (SP), it just realistically needs a bit more content (especially lategame and during peacetime) and some polish. For MP it's a whole other debate, but I'm waiting to see if and how they will satisfy the majority of players needs. Yet even if they don't introduce the warband system of choosing your own equipment (which many players have been asking for), a modder will surely do that in the future (custom servers). So, no matter the debate of what is better for the game or what the game needs, everything will settle in time in some way or another - officially or through modding, so the game still will offer plenty for most players. All of those reasons are why I think some of the negativity concerning the game is exaggerated, even if some of the criticism is indeed valid. Personally, I will wait until further development and we will see in the future if people (and myself) are (still) satisfied or not, and that's pretty much it. It really doesn't need to be more complicated than this. We don't need all the daily negativity, attacks on developers, etc... And sometimes it would be nice if we could have a positive post without people instantly jumping the OP about why he's wrong, when that is his perspective just as yours is yours. So, simplify things. Play the game if you enjoy it, give feedback (in a constructive way) if you may, or don't and wait until further development; It just makes life simpler, and the forum a little brighter, and we could all use that from time to time.

I have no idea in who's right mind who has played warband or has stayed in touch with TW as a studio thought that bannerlord would somehow be a cash grab.

I don't know about SP, but MP people are aware TW isn't doing a cashgrab, they are just sh!t and slow at developing the game as they have proven to all of us during the beta.

Also i feel like you are looking this at a singleplayer perspective, not a multiplayer one. Most of the people playing and giving feedback are almost exclusively MP players. When a patch is released most of us probably skip the whole SP part and right to the MP part, and i am sure that i am not making this up.

So yes, if you see how awful MP updates release and how bad they are communicating, they deserve all the hate. Because as of now, EVERYTHING about the MP has been said, and as clearly you have said in OP, the section is only filled with "negative thread" because that is the only thing there is left to do after the community has expressed again and again what the issues where.


This forum section would have been dead months ago if it wasn't for those "toxic threads" being the only thing keeping people from coming here.

 

[Einarcf]

Also i feel like you are looking this at a singleplayer perspective, not a multiplayer one. Most of the people playing and giving feedback are almost exclusively MP players. When a patch is released most of us probably skip the whole SP part and right to the MP part, and i am sure that i am not making this up.

Can confirm

 

[Demoulius]

It may be more prevelant here but honestly its all over the forums. I think people just expected more from the game and/or are jaded because the developers arent communicating that much with the 'general public'.

 

[AndrewArt]

I have no idea in who's right mind who has played warband or has stayed in touch with TW as a studio thought that bannerlord would somehow be a cash grab.

I don't know about SP, but MP people are aware TW isn't doing a cashgrab, they are just sh!t and slow at developing the game as they have proven to all of us during the beta.

Also i feel like you are looking this at a singleplayer perspective, not a multiplayer one. Most of the people playing and giving feedback are almost exclusively MP players. When a patch is released most of us probably skip the whole SP part and right to the MP part, and i am sure that i am not making this up.

So yes, if you see how awful MP updates release and how bad they are communicating, they deserve all the hate. Because as of now, EVERYTHING about the MP has been said, and as clearly you have said in OP, the section is only filled with "negative thread" because that is the only thing there is left to do after the community has expressed again and again what the issues where.


This forum section would have been dead months ago if it wasn't for those "toxic threads" being the only thing keeping people from coming here.

Hmm, if some players are really exclusively MP players, which I didn't think about, I can understand the frustration more. Multiplayer hasn't been receiving a lot of love. I did actually play multiplayer every now and then so I'm not looking only through a SP perspective, as I too find some things frustrating (in both SP and MP). For me the game as a whole has been worth it, as I've been playing both SP and MP a bunch, which racked up a considerable amount of hours. But if you don't play singleplayer at all then yes, it makes sense to be more frustrated than not (especially now since the servers keep crashing like in the past, and still there are pretty bad balance issues). Yet still, I'd like to say that I'm expecting things to get better. Battle mode and voice chat are coming are they not? Should be some pretty significant and happy updates for the MP, hopefully.

What I was talking about though was more on the negative view on Bannerlord as a whole (as many have problems with the SP as well, not just the MP), and general negativity on the forums... There are even SP players that will tell you that mount and blade was not made for MP. There have been people actively saying on the patch notes that they don't care about MP and basically shutting down players who expressed concerns about multiplayer not getting any updates (so again, the general issue comes from a core negativity on the forums, directed at everything and everyone just for the sake of it)... This is what I hope will subside in time. The toxic threads spread like a wildfire, so is it really a good thing that the forum is kept alive through toxicity? Well, it can provide entertainment for a while, sure. But at the end of it you have a forest that provides no oxygen. And this is what some negativity does, it also brings good ideas and feedback down with it, burnt to a crisp. Like, how was it in any way fair for people to aggressively say "Focus on SP, **** MP" when MP was barely getting absolutely anything. I didn't see the point of that, even playing mainly SP. It's just like... why... anyway, realistically, all we can do is give our feedback in civil ways, and then do as has been mentioned even in the OP. Like the game, play it... don't like it, take a break, play it later, that's my view on it as well.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/261550/discussions/0/2445965520301132016/?l=czech found this post on steam forums with people debating this negativity thing. Some raise good points, some oppose them, like always. If anyone wants to read through them have at it.

Goodnight

 

[JakobvanBicke]

Sad is defending people, who did nothing and ignored their own community

sad

 

[Spottswoode]

@Op I agree! So much whinging and so many low quality comedians trying way to hard to be the most sarcastic person on the thread. I enjoy the game knowing it's Early Access, I see the problems and report them in a normal respectful way. I anticipate everything is delayed beyond their ETA, it's a game being made / fixed as we play it so of course it will be full of problems. Yes when things break it's annoying, but its a work in progress. People here are very upset they are putting more resources into SP than MP, fair enough from a MP players perspective... But people having little snarky tantrums isn't going to motivate devs to listen to you any more intently. Just because you see something as the most important feature in your play session, doesn't mean that is what the devs are working on at that moment, so report and chill.

I'm following a pretty big mmo project made by a small studio, wow guess what.. same problems as they release new things, problems arise and new features require more balancing. Progress sometimes happens to a lot of the things in the background, things that are not exciting to talk about it show, but still important progress. Far less toxicity in that mmo's forums though, maybe this Bannerlord forum is full of kids I guess?

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

For those saying that "early access is the release, and it was a buggy release etc" - they only released in early access because community has pressured them into doing so, increasingly more as time passed.

I think you're looking at it backwards. Taleworlds is way more insular than this. They have never responded to fan pressure in this way before. People were saying "Bannerlord will never come out" specifically because Taleworlds missed its own set deadlines multiple times from 2013-2019, were radio silent for months at a time, and there was very little visible progress.

If after 8 whole years of fans complaining the game is suddenly released, it's not because of the fans.

 

[Grank]

That's just how anger works. When you're angry, your priority in thinking is to justify that anger. You will look for every hole in every statement coming from the other side, instead of trying to understand it. If they say something, you will call it an excuse. If you don't say anything, you will say they're ignoring you. When you hear another voice of anger, you will feel even more justified in yours. You will express your anger louder to be part of the group. It makes you feel like you're right, because there are others who think the same, and being right feels good. Venting frustration feels good. Having allies feels good. If you feel good, you keep doing it.

 

[hoboistice]

Because the game sucks

 

[amanamoth]

maybe ur just too weak, man up

 

[five bucks]

(I didn't play for ~~a year and the game's vastly improved).

In a year, other game companies of similar size and resources are able to make entire games.

But Bannerlord still has almost all the major issues now that it had at release a year ago. It's still missing features that were in the last game made 10 years ago by a 10x smaller team. Has it improved? Yes. Vastly? No. The amount of improvement has been what I would describe as somewhere between small and medium.

 

[Ratvioli]

The amount of improvement has been what I would describe as somewhere between small and medium.

I would say it lies somewhere between small and pretty patheticly little.

 

[Mad Vader]

But Bannerlord still has almost all the major issues now that it had at release a year ago. It's still missing features that were in the last game made 10 years ago by a 10x smaller team. Has it improved? Yes. Vastly? No. The amount of improvement has been what I would describe as somewhere between small and medium.

Interestingly enough, Taleworlds never offered an explanation for their perceived slow work. The forum theories focused on mismanagement, individual ineptitude/inexperience and even diverting people to their Ottoman Space game. None of these may be quite true for all we know.
I think it would be good for them to offer an official explanation, they might at least get some sympathy and understanding. The one-year self-fellatio was a good opportunity, but missed now.

 

[Greedalicious]

The people on the forum have spent the last x ammount of years learning the game, building up expectations of how we want the game to be, and when it fails to reach those expectations, people get frustrated. Majority of the posts at least at the start of alpha, even beta and early access were constructive criticism, which was largely ignored, and some people realised the best way to get the developers to react was to be extreme.

The main problem is that every stupid post we make on the forum, the less they care about the feedback. We can discuss balancing for a hundred years, and make on point analysis, but if they see us as a bunch of trolls, it wont matter.

 

[IronLion]

I've just sat and read the Multiplayer Forum section and Jesus Christ guys chill out and stop being so horrible.

Game's not even released yet. Stop insulting the devs. They're making progress (I didn't play for ~~a year and the game's vastly improved). If the game's lack of immediate progress is stressing you out so much, go play something else until it's done. Harrassing and insulting the devs constantly helps nobody, and just alienates the community from the developers. Moreover some of us would like to read the Multiplayer Forum and enjoy what we read, not see endless whining about developer progress and trolling.

I know you're excited for the game to be finished, but guys, chill.

I understand your sentiment but the thing is I payed a decent amount of money for this game and you know, I'd therefore expect it to work/be close to being finished. As it happens minus the balance issues it did work ok - since then Dev's have patched the game 2 or 3 times - each time lowering the frame rate for myself and others - they've never addressed that they've damaged the game like this nor have they announced any fixes so it's quite frustrating when they're not only not improving the game but actively making it worse.

 

[KSHMR]

The people on the forum have spent the last x ammount of years learning the game, building up expectations of how we want the game to be, and when it fails to reach those expectations, people get frustrated. Majority of the posts at least at the start of alpha, even beta and early access were constructive criticism, which was largely ignored, and some people realised the best way to get the developers to react was to be extreme.

The main problem is that every stupid post we make on the forum, the less they care about the feedback. We can discuss balancing for a hundred years, and make on point analysis, but if they see us as a bunch of trolls, it wont matter.

Yeah Greedalicious this is very on point. I think I've said this before but especially in the first few months there was really proper and constructive feedback. However, TW has been ignoring most feedback anyways. Besides this, they have their own view on what the game should look like. This is usually a good thing but it hasn't led to a very positive experience for most people. The reason why people are so toxic is because a lot of people feel ignored and frustrated.

There are some good examples of people that really care(d) about the game and posted a lot of good feedback. Their feedback was ignored and now they've become massive trolls and toxicity spreaders. I myself tried to put effort into helping the developers make this a great game, but I stopped doing that a while ago.

 

[Younes]

All the people who are trying to say "oh nononono don't be toxic" are the same people who haven't been there at the period where constructive feedback was rampant and it shows.