Where are the strong female heroines?

[hruza]

Even now you persist in trying to undermine the example, insisting she wasn't a "real" warrior because she wasn't put in the meat grinder. "You got me, but it doesn't count" is more like it.

I don't persist on anything. I have accepted your example. I quoted from a source you have quoted yourself. Nowhere did I said it undermines anything. I have left it to the readers to decide if that undermines or not. But fact that you yourself think it does speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Also, in a lot of societies it is acceptable for men to hit women. Including europe, up until relatively recently.

No it was not. Something happening is not the same thing as being acceptable. People are violating all sorts of rules, but that doesn't mean those rules does not exist.

Most cultures in europe are patriarchal, men hold most social authority, and allowing women to hold physical power is a challenge to that authority. However you find that in matriarchal societies like in parts of south east asia and west africa, women hold most of the social authority and are allowed to exert power over men. In these cases you see women fighting as soldiers a lot more often.

And what's the difference between holding physical and other power? Why should woman holding physical power over men being any less (supposedly) acceptable to patriarchy then holding other power? Not to mention that women can't hold physical power over men on the scale of the whole society because they are in general physically weaker then men to begin with. If physical power was deciding factor, then matriarchy would newer exist in the first place. It would have been no contest.

 

[Orion]

 

[Noudelle]

This thread is getting tedious.

 

[hruza]

Another example worth mentioning: Trial by Combat. In the Middle Ages and early Renaissance period, there was practice of resolving legal disputes by a duel. It was acceptable for a women to take part in such duel against men ...BUT, men were placed in to the hole in the ground.

From Fechtbuch by Hans Talhoffer, 1467:

Duel between husband and wife from Fechtbuch by Solothurner, 1423. Note that man is in the hole and unarmed (weapon woman is using is large stone wrapped in cloth):

 

[Crossbow Pig]

WTF 

 

[BayBear]

Being a leader is more about charisma and having the ability to sell visions and ideas that people will follow. More so than clubbing a man’s skull. Many women have shown this ability to great effect i.e. Joan of Arc & Margaret Thatcher.

As for physical combat, there is no denying that women have an inherent disadvantage and most shy away from it. But this doesn’t mean they can’t get what they want. Instead they prefer to make use their higher levels of emotional intelligence and charm to influence others. I think Bannerlord gameplay would benefit from recognizing the inherent differences between men and women by providing us with the gameplay mechanics to utilize the different dynamics.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Also, in a lot of societies it is acceptable for men to hit women. Including europe, up until relatively recently.

No it was not. Something happening is not the same thing as being acceptable. People are violating all sorts of rules, but that doesn't mean those rules does not exist.

Google "domestic violence middle ages". You'll find periods where abused wives were told by priests simply to be more obedient, and men were advised on the proper way to beat their spouses. While making a blanket statement on the entire period is impossible, it's silly to claim that all the cases of domestic abuse we do know about were from a society which frowned upon it.

And what's the difference between holding physical and other power? Why should woman holding physical power over men being any less (supposedly) acceptable to patriarchy then holding other power?

When you segregate social roles by gender then you have to enforce them across the board. Even today, some people laugh at men for doing too much of the childcare, or cooking too often, or cleaning too much, as that is the domain of women in a patriarchy and they're encroaching on it. Conversely, if you have a society where men are supposed to be in charge, but you give weapons and military roles and actual physical power to women, there's a contradiction.

Not to mention that women can't hold physical power over men on the scale of the whole society because they are in general physically weaker then men to begin with.

Even assuming women are that much weaker than men, why do you think a government only needs to arm a tiny proportion of the population in order to control all of it? Do you expect women in these societies to use arm wrestling to maintain control?

 

[HUMMAN]

Oh a topic to nitpick!
Lets make a distinction masculine and femine. Naturally men are masculine and women are femine. Women who fights and stuff should be masculine, in north korea women soldiers stop their menstral cycles etc. These traits are given by hormones, anyone with basic biology&evolution sees men are better for personal fighting, group fighting and organizing group fighting.

 

[fedeita]

Duel between husband and wife from Fechtbuch by Solothurner, 1423. Note that man is in the hole and unarmed (weapon woman is using is large stone wrapped in cloth):

please add this to bannerlord marriages 

 

[Scuba Steve]

This individual is not from the Sengoku period, she was involved in the Genpei war of the Heian period, which established the Kamakura shogunate. This is on the provided wiki page.

She's not from any period. She's a fictional construct from 100 years after the Genpei war. If people want to bring up Japanese warrior women, they need to stop mentioning Tomoe Gozen, because she does nothing for it.

The only real Onna-bugeisha who has any sort of actual historical sources surrounding them is Nakano Takeko, who fought in battle as part of a group of women who were not allowed to join as an official part of the army of Aizu domain. She's pretty much the only one with any corroborating sources. That being said, she was a very successful fighter.

 

[Bolgo Biggums]

This thread is now barely even related to OP's initial question.

 

[xdj1nn]

This thread is now barely even related to OP's initial question.

SJWs and Waifu seekers are not to be taken seriously, so the relevance of the topic isn't really at stake I'd say 

Regardless there are some interesting things to read here 

 

[Abelardo]

This thread is now barely even related to OP's initial question.

And you act like this is not exactly what OP wanted to happen.

 

[Auldman]

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Medieval Patriarchy!!!!!!!!

 

[AmateurHetman]

It all really depends on the culture.

I think Bannerlord represents a medieval society relatively accurately. Women hold fewer positions of power or military, but they do still exist.

Some past cultures had very different proportions though.

The ancient Minoans (a bronze age society of Crete), although not completely well studied, appeared to have a predominance of female figures in authoritative roles over male ones, seeming to indicate that Minoan society was matriarchal, and among the most well-supported examples known. It's also interesting to note that the perceptions of female modesty were completely different too. In medieval Europe, it would be un-thought of for a woman to have exposed breasts. However, in ancient Minoa, women wore dresses that exposed the breasts.... they simply weren't a sexualised body part.

Another interesting example are some of the Scythian/Sarmatian tribes.

Cyrus the Great of the Archaemenid Empire fought the Scythian 'Saka' tribe whose women were said to fight alongside the men.

Burials have been found (such as the Pazyryk burial) where men and women were found to wear the same or similar clothing, and burials of warrior women were discovered.

Hippocrates said: "They have no right breasts...for while they are yet babies their mothers make red-hot a bronze instrument constructed for this very purpose and apply it to the right breast and cauterize it, so that its growth is arrested, and all its strength and bulk are diverted to the right shoulder and right arm." This may be the origin of the etymology of the word 'Amazon' as a mazos means 'without breast' in Ancient Greek.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

The "breast ironing" story is probably sensationalist since it's doubtful that having a big bust even hampers archery that much. But if anything it just highlights the ancient Greek fascination with scythians and their gender roles.

 

[AmateurHetman]

The "breast ironing" story is probably sensationalist since it's doubtful that having a big bust even hampers archery that much. But if anything it just highlights the ancient Greek fascination with scythians and their gender roles.

Of course we know that breast ironing won’t affect the strength of the arm, but an ancient people wouldn’t have that knowledge.

Either way, we do see the differences in gender roles of other civilisations (especially the Minoans).

 

[hruza]

Of course we know that breast ironing won’t affect the strength of the arm, but an ancient people wouldn’t have that knowledge.

Why wouldn't ancient people have such knowledge?

 

[Orion]

For the same reason that prevailing medical theories of the 17th century were still rooted in the concept of humors, which dates back to 5-600 BC. The science of medicine has made astronomical strides in the last three centuries, advancing much further than it did in the rest of human history.

The "breast ironing" story is probably sensationalist since it's doubtful that having a big bust even hampers archery that much. But if anything it just highlights the ancient Greek fascination with scythians and their gender roles.

They make guards for a reason. Even Kyudo, which has a ritualistic stance where the bow is held further away from the body than in European styles, has specific guards for this purpose.