SP Antiquity [WB] Shadows in the Desert - An Ancient Middle East Mod

[Patchouli Knowledge]

What do you expect from a movie that was written by someone that admitted to never having read the Iliad. Can't believe I saw that crap in theatres.

 

[Bluehawk]

Probably thought the mythology gave them an artistic blank cheque. It's a bit like how you can use any setting or costumes for a Shakespeare production and no one will second guess you, because "the story's timeless"

I saw a production of Shaw's Saint Joan at Niagara-on-the-Lake that mixed Elizabethan fashion for the court with WW1 uniforms for the armies. There's something not quite right about Jeanne d'Arc in an Adrian helmet.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I thought his armor was more boar tusk plates, rather than solid Dendra panoply-type armor. The rationale being that Dendra-style armor was for stationary soldiers, like a spearman on a chariot or somesuch.

According to Dan Howard who has worn a reproduction of the Dendra panoply (also interesting point is that Dan believes the armour described in the Iliad to be Geometric style, and when Homer does mention older styles like the Dendra or boars tusk helmets, he makes a point to say it is not worn anymore) says this: "Regarding movement. The entire panoply including helmet, greaves and gorget weighs just over 25 kg. Even though it seems to fit me quite well, a lot of the weight is still carried on the shoulders. It is possible to run, lay down, jump up, etc. I even played cricket in it after Andrew said that he did it. It is hard to lift up one's arms above the head and it is fairly hard to throw a javelin but one can fire a bow while wearing it. It is definitely not too encumbering to wear if fighting on foot. However the gorget simply sits over the shoulders with no means of fastening it in place. It jumps around a lot if one is attempting to fight on foot."

and

"It is only uncomfortable on the shoulders. Most of the weight is carried here. If the gorget was lined thickly enough to stop it from moving around it would cut off the air to my mouth and make it very difficult to turn my head. It would also reduce the inside diameter to the point that it would not fit over the helmet - remember that the helmet must be fastened under the chin before the gorget is slipped on over the head."

also

"I've been looking for specialised pieces of neck protection from other cultures during that time period (Egypt, Canaan, etc) and find that it is largely restricted to charioteers. After some impromptu experiments I think that it was too impractical for someone who had to engage in any sort of combat. This seems to reinforce the thesis that the Dendra panoply was used by a chariot driver and not any kind of combatant. If the driver had to fight then the gorget could be quickly slipped off and discarded. The rest of the armour is perfectly capable of allowing one to fight."

As an aside, a good bit of information concerning the Trojan war is this: Nikos Kokkinos, "Ancient Chronography, Eratosthenes and the Dating of the Fall of Troy", in Ancient West and East No.8 (2009), pp. 37-56.

The Bronze Age Center and Roman Army Talk forums are also great treasure troves of information. - Just throwing this out there.

Also

Spoiler

Sketch of Agamemnon's armour based on the description from the Iliad to be given to armour maker Jeffrey Hildebrandt.

"Now there were ten dark bands of cobalt upon it,
and twelve of gold and twenty of tin. And toward the opening
at the throat there were rearing up serpents of cobalt,
three on either side, like rainbows, which the son of Kronos
has marked upon the clouds, to be a portent to mortals."

"First he placed along his shins the beautiful greaves linked
with silver fastenings to hold the greaves at the ankles."

"but Iphidamas stabbed to the belt underneath the corselet
and leaned in on the stroke in the confidence of his strong hand
but could not get clean through the bright war belt, far sooner
the spearpoint pushed against the silver bent back, like soft lead.

Here it seems that he is not wearing a mitra. Iphidamas stabs Agamemnon under the cuirass and his zoster stops the blow. His zoster appears to be a girdle made of leather and decorated with silver plates."

"He is probably not wearing forearm bracers because Koön stabs him "at the middle arm, underneath the elbow"."


And two slightly modified designs:

Two different propositions for the back:

Bracer:

How it would sit on the body (with Mitra plate)

Not as colourful or as awesome as the stuff Matmohair has posted, but maybe someone might like it.

 

[Sahran]

What do you expect from a movie that was written by someone that admitted to never having read the Iliad. Can't believe I saw that crap in theatres.

I remember in the "making of" section for the dvd both the writer and director flat out say something like "Between authenticity or telling a good movie, we favor the latter".

Some things were 'good enough' in the movie. Inaccurate as hell (how the **** did the Trojans have enough bling for EVERY SOLDIER to have embossed cuirasses) but I really did like the Trojan's general appearances.

In terms of casting, Achilles, Odysseus, Hektor, Helen, Andromache, and I guess begrudgingly Paris were all well done (in my opinion at least). I was really irritated with the casting of Menelaos and Agamemnon and in general the bland, generalized "Greeks bad Trojans Good". They did the same thing to Menelaos and Agamemnon as they did to Reynald de Chatillon and Guy de Lusigian in Kingdom of Heaven - making them look gross, corpulent and like a disney villain (then again we've had stylish disney villains) when in reality Reynald was noted for being a handsome devilish bastard and Guy de Lusigian was explicitly a 'trophy husband' of sibyilla whose flaw was that he was indecisive and listened to whomever spoke last. Unfortunately Trojans seem to be cast as the good guys now - one of my (late) favorite authors, David Gemmell, had the Trojans being the good guys too.

I've found that Eric Shanower's Age of Bronze comic series has done the best casting of the Iliad bar none (save for the original one!). Agamemnon has insecure jealousy of how the rank and file loves Palamedes and has intense trouble over killing his daughter Iphigenia, Menelaos is the tragic cuckold who truly love(d) helen, High King Priam is a scheming douchebag and not just this paragon of kindly faith. Even Paris, if you read from book one, you can recognize how a good hearted country boy got corrupted by being swept into his royal birthright.

With the history channel trying to cash in on the Game of Thrones phenomenon, makes me wish someone would approach the Heroic Era of Greece in a Game of Thrones/HBO Rome style.

Season 1 the Argonauts Generation, Season 2 Oedipus and/or 7 against Thebes, Season 3 the Trojan War and (if a Season 4) the odyssey and return of the Greeks.

ThegnAnsgar is right, I'd recommend anyone interested in the period go to the Bronze Age Center. They've been helpful for me, even met the man with a mustache fit to make asterix proud, Matthew Amt, when he went to a class of Professor JE Lendon's to show what a Roman legionary panoply was like.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

With the history channel trying to cash in on the Game of Thrones phenomenon, makes me wish someone would approach the Heroic Era of Greece in a Game of Thrones/HBO Rome style.

But you know if they did, it'd be all classical muscle cuirasses and Corinthian helmets. They'd be made of leather, too.

Those Agamemnon concepts are interesting. I wonder about the small, hinged mitra, though. Now, I don't really know very much about this subject at all, but in my reading I don't recall seeing a source for those.

If it is, in fact, plausible, have you got any interest in something like that, Sahran? might be interesting to make.

 

[Sahran]

With the history channel trying to cash in on the Game of Thrones phenomenon, makes me wish someone would approach the Heroic Era of Greece in a Game of Thrones/HBO Rome style.

But you know if they did, it'd be all classical muscle cuirasses and Corinthian helmets. They'd be made of leather, too.

Those Agamemnon concepts are interesting. I wonder about the small, hinged mitra, though. Now, I don't really know very much about this subject at all, but in my reading I don't recall seeing a source for those.

If it is, in fact, plausible, have you got any interest in something like that, Sahran? might be interesting to make.

Yeah, that's sadly true. I haven't been willing to check the bible series out because I feel like I'd have an aneurysm for how godawful the costumes are. But let's see

• Devil looks like Obama 
• Angel in Sodom has what looks like Chinese Armor on
• Goliath has linothorax on

I'M OUT. SCREW THIS.

Oh but more seriously I'll check, but I think there's a lot of guesswork with what Homeric greek/mycenaean linear B meant with the mitre/mitra beyond 'protective band' - hence multiple half-hoop rings, large single half-hoop plates, or even a little hinged one. I am almost 99% sure I've seen the hinged mitra in archaic greek armor, which implies a possible continuity with the mycenaeans - such as we have with the Dipylon shield.

 

[TrinityArse]

Come on! The series is very interesting to people who've either read the Bible or want to follow it through a visual. Tbh, it's a very interesting show through both perspectives. The guy who plays Satan is a pretty well-respected Moroccan actor who's played in tons of movies (Satanic characters included) long before Obama was elected. I see absolutely no resemblance between the two, anyway.

In addition, the show is surprisingly low-budget for what they've been putting on screen lately, so don't expect the down-to-detail costumes so many historians are looking for. It's aimed at playing on the Bible. Not to rant, but I think it's really entertaining and hardly mind the costume errors.

 

[duckwolf2]

I modeled the helmet and Kuauik did the textures  (by the way what kind fo spider is that Sahran?)

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

Looks good, but I'd tone down or completely remove the normal mapping on the bronze parts. The surface of bronze is very smooth and not at all noisy like that. The only thing that should be normal mapped on bronze like that is maybe some signs of having been worked with a hammer and some dings and dents from use.

 

[Sahran]

That's always been the tricky thing for me, Docm30. I used to have my bronze textures be more smooth but then I found normalmaps could make them look kinda cooler.

Also, because of financial difficulties the mod will be removing the Phoenicians from Cyprus and replacing them with Germans.

Spoiler

Totally serious

Spoiler

No I'm not.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

The thing is that with a normal map like that it looks less like bronze than it does plaster that's been spray painted bronze coloured. The trick to good bronze (and any metal, really) is in the specular.

A lot of people just spend two seconds making the specular out of the diffuse, which is a big mistake. One should take some time to really study the reflectiveness of a material. Usually the specular map should have a lot of detail that the diffuse doesn't.

 

[Merlkir]

Heh heh, as far as outrageous ideas about the Illiad go, I prefer the scifi take on it, by Dan Simmons. Highly recommended!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilium/Olympos

 

[spyczech]

Hey guys, I've developing my modeling skills, and was wondering what I could contribute to the mod. If I could get some reference pics I could do some weapons, or whatever you guys need.

 

[mario777]

when will it be realesed ?

 

[matmohair1]

Spoiler

 

[ALG]

I have opened a dedicated thread at french M&B fans forum MundusBellicus.fr :

http://www.mundusbellicus.fr/forum/showthread.php?6972-M-amp-B-Warband-Solo-Shadow-in-the-Desert

The work you are doing is incredible, keep it up !

 

[Sahran]

Glad to hear it ALG,  and thanks matmohair1 - seems you've secured the mantle for being able to fire rare and amazing artwork! Mario - August 22nd! No really, we don't know, we are working hard at it, and there will be some fantastic new work by the master himself kuauik to display soon - and sooner still we'll try and get chariot footage since while DrTomas toils hard at the script it's still a WIP!

spyczech: Glad to hear you're entering the foray of modding. Unfortunately for me I have found it difficult to scrounge up any additional models we really need for our crew as is, so I am not sure what I could provide an idea of us looking for. I think maybe more scene related stuff, but I am not sure what in particular we need. Personally I'd just do whatever models strike your fancy and present them as an OSP - if we could use them we will, and it's good practice and might lead you somewhere. Pretty much how I started modding, and how eventually it led me to work with Kuauik and Tomas! Think if I wasn't working on a mod I'd be doing OSPs, myself.

 

[spyczech]

Thanks dude, I understand ya. I really like the idea of an OSP, so I'll probably do that. Well, I did whip up this Egyptian shield based on one of those reference pics (thanks for those, always cool to see historical outfits and stuff), so if you have any tips or want to use it that'd be awesome. Here's a link to the shield and it's texture map.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8LZlWzQDYuseUxDajk5Sk8yT2M&usp=sharing
But yeah, if you think of anything you need in particular you need, feel free to ask. I've got an ambitious mod project down the line, but for now I'd love to help the community if I can. Plus, it's never a bad idea to model it seems. It's good for the soul

 

[FALX]

Helmet from tomb XXVIII at Tyrins. (Pic 1)
Sub Mykenaean period, ca 1050-1025, Archaeological Museum of Nafplion

 

[doctorwarband]

Hey I need resources for my research on Kingdom of Israel.
I wanna start modelling too and I want to try making something like that, so please PM me with resources.
Thank you ahead.