Vikingr troops should get the new sailor bonus

[Reiksmarshal]

With the new adjustment made to sailors it might be an interesting idea if this was applied to the Vikingr troop types as well. After all they were the best sailors of the period so this is only fitting. They have a higher upkeep now and their gear is pretty sporadic to include tunics like what sailors wear so in essence they are already hybrid warrior sailors. 

From kalarhan

Spoiler

18 sailors / 14% speed / 99 troops
27 sailors / 20% speed / 108 troops
27 sailors / 63% speed/ 34 troops 

That said they are restricted to a certain play style so sailors will still have a major role, particularly with merchant characters who want to be mostly traders. What do you guys think, should Vikingr troops benefit from the new sailor system?   

 

[kalarhan]

to add info on ship speed (sea):

Sailors bonus is calculated by:

Spoiler

num_sailors * 80 / size_party

E.g:

18 sailors / 14% speed / 99 troops
27 sailors / 20% speed / 108 troops
27 sailors / 63% speed/ 34 troops 

I also did a look at the ship_speed script (warning: big one!)

Spoiler

  ("calculate_party_speed_water", [
      (store_script_param, ":party_id", 1),


      # se for player's boat
      (try_begin),
        (eq, ":party_id", "p_main_party"),
        (assign, ":base_speed", 20),

        # depends on ships
        (try_for_range, ":slot_no_", 301, 30,
          (party_get_slot, ":ship", ":party_id", ":slot_no_"),
          (gt, ":ship", 0),
          (call_script, "script_get_ship_properties", ":ship"),
          (assign, ":ship_base_speed", reg1), # ship base speed
          (store_add, ":local_6", ":slot_no_", 20),
          (party_get_slot, ":local_7", ":party_id", ":local_6"), # some factor here...
          (val_mul, ":ship_base_speed", ":local_7"),
          (val_div, ":ship_base_speed", 100),
          (neg|ge, ":ship_base_speed", ":base_speed"),
          (assign, ":base_speed", reg1),
        (try_end),



      # for others. Need to figure out 11 and 13 (slot #0 for a troop)
      (else_try),
        (party_slot_eq, ":party_id", slot_party_type, 13),
        (assign, ":base_speed", 12),
      (else_try),
        (party_slot_eq, ":party_id", slot_party_type, 11),
        (assign, ":base_speed", 7),
      (else_try),
        (assign, ":base_speed", ,
      (try_end),


      (store_mul, ":local_8", "$beaufort", 3),
      (val_min, ":local_8", 1,
      (store_add, ":final_speed", ":base_speed", ":local_8"),
      (val_max, ":final_speed", 5),


      # find the skill for navigation
      (try_begin),
        (party_slot_eq, ":party_id", slot_party_type, 13),
        (party_stack_get_troop_id, ":local_10", ":party_id", 0),
        (troop_is_hero, ":local_10"),
        (store_skill_level, ":skl_navig", "skl_navigation", ":local_10"),
      (else_try),
        (eq, ":party_id", "p_main_party"),
        (store_skill_level, ":skl_navig", "skl_navigation", "trp_player"),
      (else_try),
        (assign, ":skl_navig", 0),
      (try_end),


      # skill speed factor
      (store_mul, ":local_12", ":skl_navig", ":final_speed"),
      (val_mul, ":local_12", 5),
      (val_div, ":local_12", 100),
      (val_add, ":final_speed", ":local_12"),


      # sailors bonus  (sailors * 80 / num_troops)
      (try_begin),
        (eq, ":party_id", "p_main_party"),
        (store_party_size_wo_prisoners, ":party_wo_prisoners", "p_main_party"),
        (gt, ":party_wo_prisoners", 0),
        (party_count_members_of_type, ":sailors", "p_main_party", "trp_regular_sailors"),
        (val_mul, ":sailors", 80),
        (store_div, ":sailors_bonus", ":sailors", ":party_wo_prisoners"),
        (val_add, ":sailors_bonus", 100),
        (val_mul, ":final_speed", ":sailors_bonus"),
        (val_div, ":final_speed", 100),
      (try_end),

      # some factor...
      (assign, ":local_16", 170),
      (try_begin),
        (eq, ":party_id", "p_main_party"),
        (assign, ":local_16", 150),
      (try_end),

      # final calculation -> random factor
      (store_random_in_range, ":rnd_-2_3", -2, 3),
      (val_mul, ":rnd_-2_3", 5),
      (val_add, ":local_16", ":rnd_-2_3"),
      (val_mul, ":final_speed", ":local_16"),
      (val_div, ":final_speed", 100),

      (assign, reg1, ":final_speed"),
  ]),


Factors include your skill, your ships type, random luck, sailors. Weather must be there somewhere (probably the $beaufort variable)

Beaufort seens to be:
Negative : calm
<=3 : light breeze
4: moderate
5 or 6: strong
7: high wind
8 or 9: gale

Interesting bit: base speed is 20.


Suggestions:
- slaves/prisoners should increase speed (wasn’t common to use slaves as sailors?)



A reminder:

You can use Ctrl+space to speed up time while traveling on sea, just like on land.

small rant: gah 20min to translate that code, where are the module source files????? 

 

[JuJu70]

small rant: gah 20min to translate that code, where are the module source files????? 

Did anyone promise that module?

 

[kalarhan]

small rant: gah 20min to translate that code, where are the module source files????? 

Did anyone promise that module?

That is off-topic. We are talking about modules since day-1, but I guess by your reply (not the first time) that the Brytenwalda team doesnt plan to release it. If that is the case at least come and tell us.

Modding is a big deal for the players, if you guys dont want to support it please stop joking about it. It is not funny for the ones that bought the game.

 

[JuJu70]

small rant: gah 20min to translate that code, where are the module source files????? 

Did anyone promise that module?

That is off-topic. We are talking about modules since day-1, but I guess by your reply (not the first time) that the Brytenwalda team doesnt plan to release it. If that is the case at least come and tell us.

Modding is a big deal for the players, if you guys dont want to support it please stop joking about it. It is not funny for the ones that bought the game.

No I'm just teasing. I don't know their plans.

 

[Petro Buleka]

That said they are restricted to a certain play style so sailors will still have a major role, particularly with merchant characters who want to be mostly traders. What do you guys think, should Vikingr troops benefit from the new sailor system? 

Of Course. Viking 1.04 is not so easy to find, and the salary is very high. And since the price has increased, it is necessary to improve the quality. Especially since it fits into the historical concept.
But as I wrote in another topic, a whole new system of sea voyages should be reconsidered. the main thrust of the sea give the sailors, but this is not correct. Because the sail and the wind should play a major role for the ship on the high seas.

Spoiler

And I do not see any effect on the speed of navigation skills.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

"They are a nation of sailors of seas incessantly whipped by terrible storms. This leads to better development in the art of navigation than other peoples and so end up building boats that are superior to other European nations, which will give them the opportunity to open commercial routes on the main navigable rivers in Europe and Western Russia and to colonize lands unexplored until then."

 

[kalarhan]

And I do not see any effect on the speed of navigation skills.

My early post explains how the the calculation works, including the effect of your navigation skill.

Because the sail and the wind should play a major role for the ship on the high seas.

They do. Again my early posts shows how. Base speed and weather are the major factors. Sailors are a cool but small bonus unless you go pure sailors crew 

Suggestions:
- slaves/prisoners should increase speed (wasn’t common to use slaves as sailors?)

I gonna steal my suggestion and yours and add to the VC Modding Dream - Collection of ideas just in case it never gets in the game!




If sailors do a  (80*sailors/crew) bonus, what would be a good equation for vikings? Easier tweak is to just include them in the same formula, but that would make running away from AI pirates kind of.. impossible HAHA

Ideas?

 

[Petro Buleka]

Simply amazes me. How do these men disperse the ship faster than the wind !! ??

Spoiler

Apparently so?

Spoiler

Can someone from the developers tell us where is the logic?

 

[JuJu70]

They have oars, you know.

 

[Petro Buleka]

They have oars, you know.

You kidding? No oars can not give more than the speed of the vehicle gives the wind. They also add to it nothing can
At sea, the oars used only during the calm

 

[kalarhan]

Simply amazes me. How do these men disperse the ship faster than the wind

This thread created by @reiksmarshal is about sailors and vikings bonus, could you create a new one for your roar versus wind discussion? 

That made me curious: 1 to 1.5day to get to England. Guess we are going too fast 

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/norse_ships.htm

Spoiler

Estimates of the capabilities of Norse-era ships vary from one article to the next, and even amongst organizations operating modern replicas. Estimates of top speeds under ideal conditions are in the 20-25 knot range. It's unlikely, though, that speeds greater than 15 knots were common. A modern replica similar to one of the knörr found at Skuldelev is capable of 12.5 knots under sail using a conservative seagoing rig. At that speed, England was only a day and a night away from Denmark. However, "effective" speeds were certainly less, perhaps more like 3-6 knots. Because of the minimal freeboard, the maximum heel of these ships was on the order of 15 degrees. So for the Gokstad ship in a 16 knot (8.6m/s) wind at her most efficient, the ship had to traverse 3 miles in order to sail 1 mile to windward, implying a speed made good to windward of only 2 knots.

Another curious number:

- your screen shows calm breeze. That is beaufort between 0 and 3 (ingame).
Beaufort 3 would be 6 to 10 knots ish.
Beaufort 0 would be <1 knots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

Of course a ship cant travel on a straight line and all that... (I am not a sailor :XD)

Cheers



How about we cap the speed bonus based on how many roars a ship should have?

So say you have a fleet with 80 roars and 60 sailors. So you could only get 20 vikings to add extra speed.

Maybe even cap the sailors bonus based on number of roars.

 

[Petro Buleka]

This thread created by @reiksmarshal is about sailors and vikings bonus, could you create a new one for your roar versus wind discussion? 

Ok, as you wish.

 

[Chief_Einherjar]

It would open up the ability to feel like a sea raider with bonus speed from vikings

Spoiler

plus historical accuracy and that drivel 

 

[kalarhan]

Well you got your wish :XD, high norse troops (level 24+) and pirates will give half the bonus of sailors. New patch (vc104beta3)

They added a hard cap to prevent super speed tho. If I am reading it right, the max bonus is 40%