Upvote/Downvote System
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IIRC the community roundtable, for instance, has some material that suggests that these options help lower the entrance barrier for newcomers because it allows them to test the waters and get invested with the easy mode of participation before going for actual posts. That doesn't mean we have to go for it, just that it's not as black and white as some make it out to be.Evvv said:
The problem with seeing how other people have voted on an issue is that it does influence how future individuals will perceive & vote on it. What potential gain is there that outweighs the probable cost incurred from the bandwagon effect? That's not to mention the inevitable popularity contests that would come from it. Even a user karma system gives individuals an arbitrary justification to weigh one person's posts & opinions more than another's. That said, I can see the utility of a feature similar to "Like," especially for the tech support boards and some community initiatives like guides and indexes. Seeing which posts are frequently considered helpful or relevant is useful. It would have to be one way, though. Negative voting is just a messy form of community policing at best, like getting fined by a damn HOA.
That might work for other forms of media like video and image sharing sites, but this is a forum and forums are for full-length discussions & discourse. We don't have an arbitrarily short character limit, likes/dislikes, upvotes/downvotes, or even previews of what's in a thread beyond the title. Forums are long-form by nature, where everyone is encouraged to explain their thoughts in detail. Explaining your thoughts is a skill, and like every skill it needs to be developed through practice. You don't have to, of course, but if that's the case then maybe there are places more to your liking that you can get involved in, like Reddit. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't go to a sushi restaurant if I want tacos.fudachet said:
To some degree it comes down to personal opinion/speculation. Data and institutions can give us some general indication, but I will happily acknowledge that just because a system works for some or even most platforms/communities doesn't mean it works for all. In this particular discussion, i do think it noteworthy that we are currently struggling with activity more so than bandwagoning. If we don't find a resolution for the former, the latter becomes irrelevant. So it is at least worth considering options that may have drawbacks like this.Orion said:
One addon we are currently looking at allows users to pick and highlight a best answer in a question thread. It can also track the amount of best answers/user.Orion said:
An upvote/downvote system ain't going to bring in more users. Assuming Bannerlord is successful then I'd say it's only a matter of time before the forum gets busy again, and when it does, then bandwagoning could become an issue. I mean, I'm against having an upvote/downvote system to begin with, as I've said before, but I also don't see any sense in adding one now, if it'll just shoot the forum in the foot later when the place gets busy again.Duh_TaleWorlds said:
I do like this idea, though. I've seen other forums do this, and I'd say it has potential. Especially in On-Topic. For example, if someone asks "Where do I find X in the game?" and he gets 8 replies: 3 are wrong, 2 aren't explanatory enough, 2 don't answer the question, and only one guy takes pity on the OP and gives a good, well-explained answer that helps him. It'd make sense if there was a way for people to highlight that post, as a way of thanking that one guy and to make it easier for other people with the same question to find the answer.Duh_TaleWorlds said:
Like Arvenski said, if Bannerlord is ever released, problems with forum usage will vanish. In that instance, lowering the threshold for participation is one of the worst ideas ever. We need to appreciate that not every idiot is a customer.
If you have anything to contradict the notion "lower entry barrier - more participation" then I would be more than happy to look into it. Currently, I have come across more material to support it - which, again, is not to say that this particular implementation necessarily suits our platform. I am well aware of its contentious nature, but it is currently a part of my job to review and discuss such things thoroughly.Arvenski said:
I have invited folks several times to share their thoughts on potential changes/improvements that could help the platform in and of itself. Ignoring everything but the game is not an option for me.Arvenski said:
It would make it less of a potential (part of a) solution to a pressing need and more of a potential for additional growth, yes. Also note that this may not be its only benefit as I explored earlier in the thread.Lord Brutus said:
To me this reads like elitism and I am not a fan of that line of argument. The strongest points against likes/dislikes are imo the increased potential for circle-jerks, some perceived sense of authority / claiming to be correct based on likes and general like-fishing (or whatever one may want to call it).Lord Brutus said:
Look into what happened on Reddit with vote manipulation to sway public opinion. There's a reason why they obfuscate true karma values now, and hide a post's for a certain duration. An ability to flag a post as 'helpful' might be nice for certain boards, but not an upvote/downvote system where people will just talk about how much karma they have lol xd (consider the old problem with postcount-based rank).
I don't think the platform will ever achieve a level of prominence that would make that level of manipulation likely, but I do see the risk of unhealthy dynamics in competitive environments and offtopic.Evvv said:
Sorry, I meant more community opinion rather than actual 'public' public opinion. As you said yourself, there is an issue with perceived correctness based on number of likes, and it invites a popularity contest that will allow people to measure or discard people versus a number. Arguments and answers would no longer be judged on merit, since there's no way to really refute a downvote.
If separating idiots from customers sounds like elitism, so be it. I find many people who cannot adequately express an opinion will not have the attention span necessary to contribute in any significant way. Like-dislike is a crutch for these folks and should not be encouraged.
Duh_TaleWorlds said:
Lower entry barrier probably isn't a necessarily good or bad thing for overall post quality, and having a larger userbase leads to the kinds of problems you get on huge forums where nobody knows anybody and it's easier for people to insult each other because there's no sense of community. I don't think a lower entry barrier outweighs the problems an upvote system is going to cause.
I also take issue with upvotes being used in a stackoverflow context too: Even in the Q&A thread, the correct answer usually presents itself immediately or not at all. Any complications are resolved in the replies. The modding board isn't active enough in my eyes for this to be necessary, and I can't see that changing with bannerlord. I can see it being useful for bug reports but not much outside that.
Well, I know you said this previously:Duh_TaleWorlds said:
But the thing is, I can't shake the doubt that at this point, you're not going to get that many new people registering here until Bannerlord comes out. I'm guessing Warband is probably still what draws the majority of newcomers to this forum, but Warband is 9 years old. I know mods and multiplayer can keep a game going for years, and WB has had plenty of both, but eventually there's bound to be a slump as veteran players move on and fewer people who haven't played WB before are interested in a 9 year-old game. I guess what I'm saying is, I can't see much point in lowering the entrance barrier now, if there aren't many people waiting behind the barrier who will be drawn in by the changes. You need something to draw people here, and that will happen once Bannerlord comes out.https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic said:
Aye, fair enough. I'm not trying to give you ****. You've talked about cleaning up, doing some reworking of the forum, and making it easier for new people to get around, and while we may debate the finer points, in general I think that's a very good idea. I guess I just imagine that as a way to make the forum more inviting for when BL comes out and the new people start showing up, not as something that will draw many new members or encourage more activity now.Duh_TaleWorlds said:
I don't think that reads like elitism, I think that reads like the words of a former moderator who knows what it's like to clean the **** up when the trolls and idiots and guys who create 40 dupe accounts come knocking. And I respect that opinion, because ultimately it's the moderators who are responsible for the day-to-day managing of the forum, so any changes TW makes to the forum may affect them quite a bit.Duh_TaleWorlds said:
If you need an example of how up/downvoting can ruin a community, just look at Imgur. I used to use that site (yeah, I know) in highschool to get through the day, until I realized I was looking at the same pictures everyday because no one felt comfortable enough to post something new out of fear of getting downvoted. Additionally, every once in a while some sob-story would get all the way to the top because, once it gets a few upvotes, no one else feels comfortable downvoting it since that will garner comments like, "Who would downvote this, that's so mean", and "wow, whoever didn't upvote this is a heartless douche", etc. That being said, being able to upvote/downvote that only you see could be helpful for threads, i.e. if I downvote a thread, I don't want it to show up in my topics anymore, and if I upvote it I want it to be at the top of the list so I can always check on it. Just a thought.
