[TWC] Questions & Suggestions

[theDonut]

i mean like this you can literally use it in final and not get any punishment for it since you keep the rounds lol 

Gibby can infallibly deduct whether someone cheated intentionally or definitely did not mean to. :^)

In all seriousness, that's what makes the saddest part of this ruling. We now risk the situation that if Gibby's teammate uses it, they can keep the rounds, whereas you and I would definitely lose them + permaban.

You think that only because you haven't looked at the reasoning of the admin team or because you are purposefully ignoring it. Donut received a lenient punishment because we don't believe he used the mod with the intention to cheat; in fact, we don't think he was aware that it wasn't allowed at all or that there was anything wrong with it. This is a genuine reason given the context of his regular play on servers like TG Arena which use the mod. All of the FT members are regular forum users and are fully aware of this ruling, so if one of them was using it in a match the only conclusion the admin team could come to would be that this player is attempting to gain an advantage. The same logic will be applied to other teams and players.

It is extremely unlikely we will catch another guy stupid enough to post a screenshot of him using forbidden modifications, so to me, this sounds like a silly attempt at wiping your street clean

Dear Watly, don't let your autistic tendencies get the best of you, okay? I know people like you have it hard, but insulting out of the blue is not nice, and you should rethink your actions. I don't think it's that far-fetched to not think that using a mod purely made in order to add new sounds, silly animations and crash fixes is something that could have a part somewhere that clashes with competitive play and hence is forbidden. It can happen. And if you think that any person with an IQ above the levels of mental retardation would be stupid enough to upload a picture of themselves knowing they are cheating, the stupid one is you, not me  I obviously had no clue it was not allowed, that's why I uploaded the picture publicly, as I already said.

What you and fietta fail miserably to realize is this is NOT on the same level as an aimbot, a wallhack, and hence the punishment should NOT be on the same level, and add to that, the intention is not ill-willed, and has been corroborated (thanks to Gibby and others for being legit dudes) by several people that I was indeed using it for TG Arena.

The saddest thing of all you and Fietta spending your efforts in trying to exert an extremely over the top punishment to a player that just came back from a long break to the game and adds to give life to a dying community and game, just so you can get your little sadistic gratification of screwing someone else over that did nothing to harm the community, due to some mental issues I don't want to know about.

Ill leave it here, don't have any interest in wasting my time arguing with the jesters and nolifes of the community, and thanks Gibby again, good luck handling these people.

 

[Fietta]

Donut, you're obviously going to be biased in the decision because the decision is about you, I'm not comparing aimbot to what you used, I'm not saying for a permanent ban; Im saying the punishment should be severe enough to ensure other people wont use it, like making it a one match ban and all relevant rounds forfeited.

You also dont define severity by word of mouth; you either follow the rules or you dont regardless of your intention. Here's a quote of what I wrote on a previous thread.

Without a harsh punishment given to something that clearly still gives you an advantage means that other people would be willing to use it for such little consequence. In the cheating rules it clearly states:

'Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications in order to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.'

The admins don't really need to know the intention, but more so what the modification does and in this case it does clearly show you the opponent's team composition - if we were sticking to the rules, regardless of how useful the modification would be, a permanent ban should be the end result.

Now, knowing that I could use this modification to get an early advantage (saying 'live' then seeing team compositions then doing a 're-live' and changing setup based on the pre-live composition of the opposing team including wild card tactics such as 8 cavalry) with such little consequence, I can almost say that it's worth it because you can gain a decent advantage before the set even starts, a one match ban for an advantage and no rounds forfeited if caught? Yes please. Donut is nice, so I won't sit here arguing for 7 pages about why he should get a severe punishment.

If I were truly anal about the rules and since there has been a previous case of the same mod, then yes you should follow the same fate (which is a permanent ban) but luckily I'm not THAT anal about it.

 

[Watly]

... to give life to a dying community and game...

You mean by doing the following?

Dear Watly, don't let your autistic tendencies get the best of you, okay? ...

...the stupid one is you, not me  ...

... due to some mental issues I don't want to know about...

... the jesters and nolifes of the community ...

Pathetic.

 

[Golden]

Lets not get too complacent and complicated when it comes to such modifications. It's easy to argue it was a mistake or it has no real impact. In NW it is common place to use the zoom modification giving you are larger field of view. It is common place to use the streamer modification to allow you to see names and health. There are people who use autoblock there are people who presumably toggle the unblockable hack (we have seen it before).

Whether or not you use these modifications or not there is a precedent in NW that they are available. So far no one has been banned or removed due to them. (Unless completely obvious). There comes a point where you have to understand we are not a professional sporting organization, decisions are not made beyond a reasonable doubt. They are made upon opinion and dubious evidence. It comes down to the admin team and who is providing the money the time and effort to the host the tournament. They have the final say. Anything else is a shot in the dark and not worth your time, we don't have those kind of resources to investigate individual instances of minor cheating or modification usage.

In NW we accept these modifications exist. Whether or not you use it or not is up to you. If you are stupid enough to be caught you bear the consequences of bans and denial. If you don't get caught you bear the moral conflictions of cheating to victory.                     

 

[Fietta]

You 'ignored' me because you were wrong, you claimed I wanted to give you a harsh punishment when in fact I never said that at all. I also dont see the need for the aggressive posts.

 

[Thunderbeu]

you guys literally get mad for the sake of getting mad and a desire to argue the decision the admins came too is fine

 

[Tardet]

Spoiler

... to give life to a dying community and game...

You mean by doing the following?

Dear Watly, don't let your autistic tendencies get the best of you, okay? ...

...the stupid one is you, not me  ...

... due to some mental issues I don't want to know about...

... the jesters and nolifes of the community ...

Pathetic.

One would think you would be able to come up with somewhat more intelligent answers given such a massive forehead size. A lot of brain matter should fit there, it's too bad..
gonna /ignore this thread like i did fietta sry mods, i fell for the provocation :v cya

Pretty sure you can argue with someone, even violently, without resulting into such pathetic insults. Unless of course if you consider yourself having the maturity of a child of 10, in that case I suppose that's appropriate.

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

I'd completly agree to this if it was the first time this happened. However, it's not.  This is (I think) the 3rd time this mod has caused this exact same problem. The last time the players got banned for the entire tournament which was a rather hard punishment imo but ok.

I have absolutely no underdstanding for this. Even if ure in a hurry because everyone is waiting for you and you don't check what module you're running (which i can see happening) as soon as you join the server and hit tab a bell should ring. It's entirely donuts fault for not reading the rules. Honestly, every normal brain should come to the conclusion that this isn't allowed to play with in tournaments even without knowing the rules.

I'm totally fine with the 1 match Suspension as I belive that it was indeed an accident. But every round in which people can doubt that there was absolutely no advantage for Donut's team should've been given to chimpz. Doesn't matter if you think this is a game deciding advantage or not. We don't know if the additional Information was used by the team or simply just himself.

What if I use aimbot while not being an Archer and not using any throwings or default crossbow, so there's literally no advantage i can gain from it during a game? Is that cheating for you? Will i only get a 1 Match ban because it never happened before? Will people argue it's not cheating because it didn't really impact the Match? Note that im not trying to say that the mod is the same level of cheating as aimbot.
Rules are rules either stick to them or remove them. This mod gives the player an undeniable advantage and should 100% be considered cheating.

 

[Tardet]

There is a lot of truth in Kawaii's post which makes it hard to disagree with however I believe it's reasonable to consider the eventuality of Donut's not paying attention to the mod itself. It shows up only when you press the scoreboard and if you play with it on a daily basis, you can totaly not realise that it creates an issue if present in a competitive match. You may think that being put in Donut's place, you would have noticed about it but considering it already happened with other people, seems fair to assume it's a mistake which can happen to some of us. 

That doesn't mean that it should not lead to a punishement but that's generally why a one match suspension seems to be enough in my eyes, since I also agree Graf's permanent ban was a little too much. However, just as Kawaii (and others) mentioned it, I wouldn't let the current results stands, for all the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Fietta]

Spoiler

... to give life to a dying community and game...

You mean by doing the following?

Dear Watly, don't let your autistic tendencies get the best of you, okay? ...

...the stupid one is you, not me  ...

... due to some mental issues I don't want to know about...

... the jesters and nolifes of the community ...

Pathetic.

One would think you would be able to come up with somewhat more intelligent answers given such a massive forehead size. A lot of brain matter should fit there, it's too bad..
gonna /ignore this thread like i did fietta sry mods, i fell for the provocation :v cya

Pretty sure you can argue with someone, even violently, without resulting into such pathetic insults. Unless of course if you consider yourself having the maturity of a child of 10, in that case I suppose that's appropriate.

Ad hominem!

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

You have to change your decision or the wording of the rule.
Doing neither doesn't work.

That doesn't mean that it should not lead to a punishement but that's generally why a one match suspension seems to be enough in my eyes, since I also agree Graf's permanent ban was a little too much. However, just as Kawaii (and others) mentioned it, I wouldn't let the current results stands, for all the aforementioned reasons.

Agreed, that's why for the rule the changeable variable should be the length of the suspesion and not the amount of rounds being dropped.

 

[KoRe]

Not here to stir the pot (or I am, you decide), but rule is a rule and so what it's not as bad as an aimbot or autoblock? Again, the rules describe it as a cheat yet here we are bending the same rule that bans people and forfeit rounds for using pink swords or javelins, actually pathetic.

I guess we are lucky this happened during the group stage and probably won't influence it's outcome. Wonder what ****storm would happen if we had this issue during the knockout stage l m f a o.

 

[GrafBlade]

I'd completly agree to this if it was the first time this happened. However, it's not.  This is (I think) the 3rd time this mod has caused this exact same problem. The last time the players got banned for the entire tournament which was a rather hard punishment imo but ok.

I have absolutely no underdstanding for this. Even if ure in a hurry because everyone is waiting for you and you don't check what module you're running (which i can see happening) as soon as you join the server and hit tab a bell should ring. It's entirely donuts fault for not reading the rules. Honestly, every normal brain should come to the conclusion that this isn't allowed to play with in tournaments even without knowing the rules.

It is exactly as Tardet described. Since M&S and TG-Arena were established sometime in 2014/2015 with the omission of classic servers like Wolfpack_Siege or ZHG I've used the NeoGK-mod for public gaming. I just got used to the look and the numbers in the scoreboard after myriads of hours on this servers. There simply was no bell ringing when it happened to me 2 years ago.

I'm totally fine with the 1 match Suspension as I belive that it was indeed an accident. But every round in which people can doubt that there was absolutely no advantage for Donut's team should've been given to chimpz. Doesn't matter if you think this is a game deciding advantage or not. We don't know if the additional Information was used by the team or simply just himself.

What if I use aimbot while not being an Archer and not using any throwings or default crossbow, so there's literally no advantage i can gain from it during a game? Is that cheating for you? Will i only get a 1 Match ban because it never happened before? Will people argue it's not cheating because it didn't really impact the Match? Note that im not trying to say that the mod is the same level of cheating as aimbot.
Rules are rules either stick to them or remove them. This mod gives the player an undeniable advantage and should 100% be considered cheating.

Well, going with procedural rules of criminal jurisdiction neither you (in your example) or Donut could be punished at all. I know that it is a bit crazy to deploy them in an online community like this, but I'd like to emphasize that we might adjust the rule about cheating based on them.
(There are basically 2 important parts: 1) Until no certain evidence is brought up, the accused must be treated as guiltless. 2) The ones complaining (e.g. the opponent) / the admin team have to prove the guilt)

Especially the 2nd part is almost impossible to manage, especially if we discuss this mod and not aimbots or autoblocks. Therefore as e.g. Kawaii said already, the wording has to be changed to clearify things and make the process of deciding easier for the admins. As I've already suggested in another post, replace the "in order to gain an advantage"- part (this is the problematic part as this actually forces the admin team to prove that Donut purposefully made use of this mod). My suggestion:

'Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications which could be used to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.

Now we could even punish the full melee aimbot of Kawaii ^^

 

[Fietta]

I mean you can assume that the reason of having the mod is for an advantage - it wasn't on the list as a modification that was allowed, thus, the only logical assumption is that he used it to gain an advantage (even though he probably didn't mean to). The admin's don't need to 'prove' that he was using it to his advantage because just simply having it on when it's not on the list of allowed modifications is enough for that.

If you want some basic psychology I can tell you right now that he was cheating, with proof.

 

[Apollo ?]

I've edited my healthbar & crosshair ban me thanks!

 

[Fietta]

I've edited my healthbar & crosshair ban me thanks!

But that doesn't give you an advantage...

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

We don't need to prove that donut has purposefully used it. The usage itself is and should be a rulebreak. Since in the ruleset this is not pointed out as allowed modification and all players are supposed to resd the rules you could totallly say it was intentional if you're going by straight logic. Failing to read the rules should not result in lower punishment. However, if you're (adminteam) able to actually prove that it was used intentionally somehow, (which is pretty much not doable same as the other side trying to prove it was not intended) the punishment should be quite a bit harder. All you need to change in the rule wording right now is switch the permanently banned from the tournament to a banned for atleast 1 Match from the tournament. This gives the possibility to hand out shorter bans for (possible) accidents or 'low level' cheats like this and you can still permban people that use aimbot and so on.

Iirc grafblade was the first to encounter this problem, so you're given special treatment. Noone expected this to happen and the rule shouldve been updated back then. Like i said the initial bans where a bit too much, but they sticked to the rules so there was no point in arguing. Doing the same thing now and having the same problem with the rule is just stupidity from both sides.

 

[Fietta]

We don't need to prove that donut has purposefully used it. The usage itself is and should be a rulebreak. Since in the ruleset this is not pointed out as allowed modification and all players are supposed to resd the rules you could totallly say it was intentional if you're going by straight logic. Failing to read the rules should not result in lower punishment. However, if you're (adminteam) able to actually prove that it was used intentionally somehow, (which is pretty much not doable same as the other side trying to prove it was not intended) the punishment should be quite a bit harder. All you need to change in the rule wording right now is switch the permanently banned from the tournament to a banned for atleast 1 Match from the tournament. This gives the possibility to hand out shorter bans for (possible) accidents or 'low level' cheats like this and you can still permban people that use aimbot and so on.

Iirc grafblade was the first to encounter this problem, so you're given special treatment. Noone expected this to happen and the rule shouldve been updated back then. Like i said the initial bans where a bit too much, but they sticked to the rules so there was no point in arguing. Doing the same thing now and having the same problem with the rule is just stupidity from both sides.

I mean... the proof's in the pudding - If he didn't know the modification was against the rules, that means he didn't know he couldn't use it, clearly meaning that he indeed used the module to gain advantage by telling his own team the composition (because he didn't know it was against the rules), on the flip side, if he knew that telling someone the composition was against the rules, then he also knew the module is against the rules (because it's the same thing) thus means that he knew he was breaking the rules the minute he entered the match.

Either way he broke the rules, if he didn't know, he'd have used it (unintentionally, but still means all rounds should be forfeited), if he did know, he wouldn't have used it but would then know the modification was banned. This is all the proof you need.

 

[theDonut]

We don't need to prove that donut has purposefully used it. The usage itself is and should be a rulebreak. Since in the ruleset this is not pointed out as allowed modification and all players are supposed to resd the rules you could totallly say it was intentional if you're going by straight logic. Failing to read the rules should not result in lower punishment. However, if you're (adminteam) able to actually prove that it was used intentionally somehow, (which is pretty much not doable same as the other side trying to prove it was not intended) the punishment should be quite a bit harder. All you need to change in the rule wording right now is switch the permanently banned from the tournament to a banned for atleast 1 Match from the tournament. This gives the possibility to hand out shorter bans for (possible) accidents or 'low level' cheats like this and you can still permban people that use aimbot and so on.

Iirc grafblade was the first to encounter this problem, so you're given special treatment. Noone expected this to happen and the rule shouldve been updated back then. Like i said the initial bans where a bit too much, but they sticked to the rules so there was no point in arguing. Doing the same thing now and having the same problem with the rule is just stupidity from both sides.

If he didn't know the modification was against the rules, that means he didn't know he couldn't use it, clearly meaning that he indeed used the module to gain advantage by telling his own team the composition (because he didn't know it was against the rules)

I know you're desperate the discussion is dying already and you need to pull something off to fulfil your boring life (i see you online nearly everytime I get on the forum), but where the heck is the logic by which you reach that conclusion? Can you explain? It's so illogical it's funny.

 

[Fietta]

We don't need to prove that donut has purposefully used it. The usage itself is and should be a rulebreak. Since in the ruleset this is not pointed out as allowed modification and all players are supposed to resd the rules you could totallly say it was intentional if you're going by straight logic. Failing to read the rules should not result in lower punishment. However, if you're (adminteam) able to actually prove that it was used intentionally somehow, (which is pretty much not doable same as the other side trying to prove it was not intended) the punishment should be quite a bit harder. All you need to change in the rule wording right now is switch the permanently banned from the tournament to a banned for atleast 1 Match from the tournament. This gives the possibility to hand out shorter bans for (possible) accidents or 'low level' cheats like this and you can still permban people that use aimbot and so on.

Iirc grafblade was the first to encounter this problem, so you're given special treatment. Noone expected this to happen and the rule shouldve been updated back then. Like i said the initial bans where a bit too much, but they sticked to the rules so there was no point in arguing. Doing the same thing now and having the same problem with the rule is just stupidity from both sides.

If he didn't know the modification was against the rules, that means he didn't know he couldn't use it, clearly meaning that he indeed used the module to gain advantage by telling his own team the composition (because he didn't know it was against the rules)

I know you're desperate the discussion is dying already and you need to pull something off to fulfil your boring life (i see you online nearly everytime I get on the forum), but where the heck is the logic by which you reach that conclusion? Can you explain? It's so illogical it's funny.

I mean it's self explanatory, I'll try to make it as simple as possible (even though it was awfully simple before). If you claim you had no idea that the module was against the rules, that would mean that you didn't know that telling your team about the opposing team's composition was against the rules (because that is what the module does), thus you would have told your team the team composition of the other team, it's very simple. If you trained your 'illogical' brain to understand logic; you'd have never asked me that question. Or as you said to Tardet 'DESTROYED BY FACTS AND LOGIC'.

So yes, using logic I have successfully proved that you either A. Knew you were cheating or B. Used it to your advantage unintentionally - either way suggests all rounds should've been forfeited.

The part you put in bold 'clearly meaning' was part of a sentence which at the end I stated 'because he didn't know it was against the rules', meaning you used it to your advantage unintentionally; the ban you received was reasonable, but the fact that rounds weren't forfeited is not reasonable.