Tournament 1.5 Development

[Windyplains]

As this is the largest player base using the tournament overhaul I wanted to ask folks on their thoughts for a few ideas in development the next TPE version.  These are all relatively minor changes to implement from a time standpoint, but affect players.

Betting:
Someone had previous suggested moving the betting system away from betting on your team and instead betting on the number of kills you could score in a round.  I modified that slightly into betting on the number of points you could achieve in the next round.  In a system like this you could play it safe and bet on only receiving 2 points to get a small amount of winnings, but factors such as winning the round or exceeding your "bid" would not be considered.  Conversely, a player could elect to bid something high like 10 points for a very high bet return due to the greater risk.  I would try to strike the balancing point with the current system right at about 6 points since that is a fairly reasonable average score when you survive a round in the current setup.  I implemented these changes to test them out and I am fairly undecided on which I think is best which is why I am asking for everyone's input.

Spoiler

How the altered betting slider would look.  Ignore the current values for now as they are not final if I stay with this system.  What concerns me is how intuitive such a system might be.  It is easy for me to think it would be easy to understand when I developed it.

Enhancement Options:
There is some possibilities for "enhancement options" to add that folks may or may not like.  These are only ideas at best:
[*] Resilient Fortitude: Provide a flat damage reduction based upon troop's Ironflesh skill & Strength attribute.  This could be stacked with enhanced armor by a character wanting to have a very resilient character not based on using a shield.
[*] Nimble Rider: Provide a % dodge chance to attacks against one's horse based upon the rider's Riding skill and perhaps the horse's maneuver rating.  This would help with some of the attacks our mounts suffer and would only be available to choose when "horse" is also selected as an option (much like the "Enhanced Horse" option).
[*] Agile Reflexes: Provide a % dodge chance to attacks against the troop based upon their athletics skill & agility attribute.  The intent here to provide agility based characters their own defensive benefit.

Any thoughts?  Keep in mind as options they would be available to the AI as well.  That may sound scary at first, but consider they'll be choosing these at the cost of not choosing enhanced weaponry, armor, shields or the warhorse.

 

[Duh]

To get the discussion going in here, i will share my take on things.

I like the idea of a new betting system, because what windy has in mind here allows the player more choices. He can play a safe or a risky game, effectively allowing low level players to profit from tournaments even if they dont win it and at the same time giving high level players a challenge to meet (or loose their bet). Im certain that this will make things more exciting throughout the game - its a pure improvement with no drawback.

The enhancement option seem interesting enough to me and could add flavor, but i fear that they will make things overly complex and "scare" some folks away from the amazing tournament system. While the other weapon/enhancement choices are clear in what they do, these would require an explanation. I would rather not like to see vague enhancements in the tournaments.

 

[FafnirTheDragon]

I think, that damage needs to be looked at. I have 26 strength, 8 Ironflesh and I use Enhanced Armor, but I can still be one-shoted by javelins, crossbows and (in rare occasions) swords.

Resilent Fortitue will increase difficulty by a lot, unless enemy stats will be lowered.

Some participians get too much points automatically, when they don't fight in my rounds. It's rare, but gets annyoing, when I need to keep up with Guardsman Bob by winning and getting Dominant Presence every round.

Companions should actually get rewards. I'm not talking about gold, but for example if someone wins an appropriate weapon, it should be used.

Betting odds need to be dynamic. In my current Floris playthrough I'm most know person in Caldaria and revered tournament champion, but odds are still 5:1. I suggest few factors:

- how much points player got overall with added bonus for winning prizes,
- how much points player got in specific city with added bonus for winning prizes,

Two above should be main factors. Other ones like renown or total amount of slain foes should have less impact, but still matter.

 

[Varsheva]

My biggest issue is not with the functionality but what was done to the areans themselves.  I think you should get rid of all the objects in arenas except maybe one or two where it makes sense (a jousting wall in the Swadian tournament). I mean having ponds and mini forests, and giant mounds, in an arena designed for show fighting??? All does is make all the AI riding horses run straight into the walls for easy kills.

Also it might be fun to put back in some randomness for player starting equipment. As it stands I select enhanced sword and enhanced shield and with the horse AI thing makes the tournaments way too easy even at low levels.

Maybe put difficuly penalties (you win less money) if you select sword and shield... bonues for selecting no shield or thrown weapons?

Also I think there are too many tournaments.. As soon as I complete a tournament quest I almost always immediately get another. Tournaments should be much rarer but very special thing with the possibility to make a lot of money and renown.

I do in general like the custimization/betting changes and the tournament quest letting you know where they are.

 

[Duh]

Im pretty sure the tournament frequency is native. The only difference is that the rumor of the road informs you of it. As for the scenes - they arent directly related to TPE, but were taken from an OSP Kit a very long time ago. They will be reviewed, but we need specific reports - as in the arena in X has the problem Y.

 

[Varsheva]

but we need specific reports - as in the arena in X has the problem Y.

The arenas that seen to work the best for the AI in my experience are the larger open ones such as all the Swadian cities. The smaller ones with all the trees,ponds,etc are the worst such as all Nord and Vaeger cities. I will try to keep track as I play which ones in particular but in general larger arenas with less "stuff" in them work better for AI riding horses.

AI not on horses seems to work ok even in the cramped arenas.

Thanks for the info on tournament spawn time. Like you said I guess I am just seeing them all now due to the notification.  I like the notification but maybe consider lowing the spawn time of new tournaments to compensate (but  maybe increasing betting limits)

 

[FafnirTheDragon]

As for the scenes - they arent directly related to TPE, but were taken from an OSP Kit a very long time ago. They will be reviewed, but we need specific reports - as in the arena in X has the problem Y.

Arena in Dhirm is terrible for either AI and players. AI gets stuck trying to climb that middle mound and when running into so many objects, that cause collisions. Players aren't able to see archers behind that stupid bush, while this doesn't affect archers aim at all. This arena is also too small for such important city put in the middle of the map.

Many arenas have very small trees, that cause collisions. These trees appear also around forests maps. IMO horses running on something that small shouldn't stop instantly like they do. Also these trees are sometimes hidden in bushes, it's very frustrating when I run into something so difficult to notice.

 

[Kane the Flesheater]

About the new enhancements: IMHO they are quite illogical, because WHY would You get a bonus to something Your character can do? It's not like they are bionic enhancements, that You get installed in Your body, which can get "removed" at the end of the tournament, right? All I mean is this: If You can justify them, then I would like to see a ton more enhancements. But these "magic" ones, not really.

About betting: I like the current system, wouldn't like it REPLACED with that idea You posted, but maybe if it could be mixed as multi-betting? Like on roulette, You can bet on Your team (lesser payout), on Yourself (bigger payout) and on number of kills You can get (the biggest payout). You could bet on one of these, two, or all three.

 

[Windyplains]

Sorry for the wall of text.

I think, that damage needs to be looked at. I have 26 strength, 8 Ironflesh and I use Enhanced Armor, but I can still be one-shoted by javelins, crossbows and (in rare occasions) swords.

This should be fairly rare and is likely the combination of a "champion" tournament participant with an enhanced javelin at his disposal.  The design of having enemies able to one shot you when you are not wearing enhanced armor is intentional though.  There is only so much that can be done to raise difficulty due to a true lack of control of the AI's behavior (like mounting free horses or focusing their fire).

Resilent Fortitue will increase difficulty by a lot, unless enemy stats will be lowered.

Probably not as much as you may fear from tinkering around, but it added stats as a whole would be weakened a little bit.  They already have been in the next release.  AI proficiency was a little higher than intended in the current Floris version.

Some participians get too much points automatically, when they don't fight in my rounds. It's rare, but gets annyoing, when I need to keep up with Guardsman Bob by winning and getting Dominant Presence every round.

This is a bug and will be fixed.  There will always be some troops that gain points every round because if I didn't give points to the non participating folks the system would be heavily exploitable since people are not eliminated at the end of each round.

Companions should actually get rewards. I'm not talking about gold, but for example if someone wins an appropriate weapon, it should be used.

This was an oversight and is now fixed for the next release.

Betting odds need to be dynamic. In my current Floris playthrough I'm most know person in Caldaria and revered tournament champion, but odds are still 5:1. I suggest few factors:

We actually had a more dynamic system originally in the open beta, but it wasn't working out well.  It figured out your true odds based upon the cumulative level & renown of each person on a team.  The current system looks at how many teams there are and how high you've set the difficulty mostly.  If the "bid on a score" system was implemented the odds component would be removed entirely as it would be unnecessary.

My biggest issue is not with the functionality but what was done to the areans themselves.  I think you should get rid of all the objects in arenas except maybe one or two where it makes sense (a jousting wall in the Swadian tournament). I mean having ponds and mini forests, and giant mounds, in an arena designed for show fighting??? All does is make all the AI riding horses run straight into the walls for easy kills.

This may get a looking over with the addition of our new sceners in the group.  I like the different setups Adorno's Arena Overhaul pack implements, but I agree the plants are annoying.  For terrains that do not work well with AI using horses you should set mounts to 0% in the tournament design panel for that city.  A large part of the reason I implemented that system was to let people fine tweak what they feel are the best gameplay options for the AI on a town by town basis.  If someone comes up with a viable "best settings" list for each town I'll consider making those a TPE default option much like the native or enable all options currently exist.

Also it might be fun to put back in some randomness for player starting equipment. As it stands I select enhanced sword and enhanced shield and with the horse AI thing makes the tournaments way too easy even at low levels.

I think difficulty is at a decent balance to keep better players happy, but not impossible for newer players.  You can return to a random design though by simply clicking the "always randomize my equipment" checkbox in the tournament options.  That will make your character pick their gear based on the same options in the tournament design panel that the AI uses.  Additionally you could try enabling the level scaling option.

Maybe put difficuly penalties (you win less money) if you select sword and shield... bonues for selecting no shield or thrown weapons?

This already exists to an extent.  You get better prizes for having level scaling turned on.  Your final prize & cash is largely based upon how high you set the difficulty slider.  I have tinkered with the idea of improving one's "odds" if they enter the arena with fewer than 3 options, but if the "bid" system is used that alone would give players control on their own difficulty and payout from odds.

Also I think there are too many tournaments.. As soon as I complete a tournament quest I almost always immediately get another. Tournaments should be much rarer but very special thing with the possibility to make a lot of money and renown.

I have not changed the native settings on how common tournaments occur, but with the quest popping up they are more visible then they were before.  You could reduce their consistency using TweakMB options.

About the new enhancements: IMHO they are quite illogical, because WHY would You get a bonus to something Your character can do? It's not like they are bionic enhancements, that You get installed in Your body, which can get "removed" at the end of the tournament, right? All I mean is this: If You can justify them, then I would like to see a ton more enhancements. But these "magic" ones, not really.

These are not pushed as "bionic enhancements".  They're offered as options within the tournament system alone since changing these things on a global basis would have a heavy impact on gameplay in the mod.  One could consider these a test of the options to see how people feel about them.  Being able to better dodge an attack because you're exceptionally nimble isn't "magical", but does help improve options over the limitations of the game's engine.  Since even if you have a 30 agility you can't evade an attack any better than someone with a 4 agility.  As well, I am always interested in folks opinions on options they believe are viable additions to the kit.

About betting: I like the current system, wouldn't like it REPLACED with that idea You posted, but maybe if it could be mixed as multi-betting? Like on roulette, You can bet on Your team (lesser payout), on Yourself (bigger payout) and on number of kills You can get (the biggest payout). You could bet on one of these, two, or all three.

Having both gets to be a bit complex, but doable.  Generally I'd prefer the system limit itself to one or another.

Too Long Didn't Read Version
Bid System: Doesn't look like there is enough interest so far to justify switching the system to this version so if folks would prefer it I'd suggest casting your vote & thoughts on the matter.

New Enhancements: Same as the above.

 

[Kane the Flesheater]

These are not pushed as "bionic enhancements".  They're offered as options within the tournament system alone since changing these things on a global basis would have a heavy impact on gameplay in the mod.  One could consider these a test of the options to see how people feel about them.  Being able to better dodge an attack because you're exceptionally nimble isn't "magical", but does help improve options over the limitations of the game's engine.  Since even if you have a 30 agility you can't evade an attack any better than someone with a 4 agility.  As well, I am always interested in folks opinions on options they believe are viable additions to the kit.

Yes, yes, I understand Windy, but I meant this: how can You justify (in lore and role playing), that You can pick some perks/traits that give you these abilities, but they are taken after the tournament? It would totally make sense as another side effect of agility (like faster running), I agree, but temporary, it just doesn't make any sense. I have to agree, that it is fair, but the 2.5 choices make sense (You can ask for a shield, then You can ask for a better shield) and these do not (You would ask to be able to throw the shield, for example, and the quartermaster, or whoever gives equipment at tournaments would say, that he cannot GIVE you that ability). Do you see what I mean?

Sorry, English is not my native language, so I may have problems trying to pass on what I mean. I hope I did not offend You in any way.

 

[azxcvbnm321]

I personally like the different terrain of the tournaments.  It adds an unique flair for each city's tournaments instead of the typical ring in which the player can easily dominate by just choosing horse and lance.  The tournaments are customizable, there are obvious layouts that are not favorable to horsemen and those that are.

The biggest complaint has already been mentioned.  There definitely should be higher level opponents in tournaments, but they shouldn't be able to one-shot you or one-swing kill you.  They should have normal weapons like you do.  It's OK if they are so agile and quick that they can take you out in 4 swings or so and beat you to the punch, but one shot is too powerful.

 

[Windyplains]

The biggest complaint has already been mentioned.  There definitely should be higher level opponents in tournaments, but they shouldn't be able to one-shot you or one-swing kill you.  They should have normal weapons like you do.  It's OK if they are so agile and quick that they can take you out in 4 swings or so and beat you to the punch, but one shot is too powerful.

You can raise the level of opponents using level scaling though, by your comment, I am guessing you feel the early ones are already too powerful.  They problem with them needing to take four swings or more to defeat you is that tournaments would become far too easy and even in native tournaments with full damage settings you would not have likely survived four direct hits.  As a player you can control this easily enough changing the damage settings to 1/4 though.  As for weapons the AI uses the exact same weapons as you have available.  There truly is only so much difficulty variance that I can program into the system to cater to the players who want a strong difficulty (high difficulty setting, level scaling etc) or those who wish a more casual experience (character damage settings, low difficulty setting, level scaling off).  Finding that balance has been an interesting project of fine tuning.  I appreciate the continued feedback from everyone though.

 

[hieronymos]

Seems to me there are several issues need addressing to make this exceptional sub-mod better:

1) Enhancements:
Why have any enhancements to armor, weapons, etc at all?
It's been one of the most complex aspects of the mod for me to grasp, and really complicates it, imo.

It also allows--nay encourages--players to "turtle" into their best weapon specialization--like sword and board. Pretty much the only reason I learned to become a half-decent lancer in M&B is because of needing to remain competitive in tournements.  And enhancements hardly seem sporting, in an event where there are supposed to be no hidden advantages.

Having said that, I now like them, now that ive gotten how to use them to my turtled advantage. But the learning curve was a bit steep and frustrating.

An answer for you could be to have player first choose enhancements/no enhancements(native);if they choose yes, they go to the enhancements tab or screen.
...........................

2) Damage:
With almost maxed ironskin & strength and enhanced armor I'm still getting sometimes taken out with single hits: 1H, 2H, throwing axes & arrows.
And on the giving end--albeit with unenhanced weapons--even from behind, it's taking me usually 2-3 hits to take out undamaged foes by 1H weapon. It's even worse with bows & x-bows. Last night, in a Yalen tourney myself (with 295 crossbow skill and powerdraw9) and one other x-bow armed teammate took at least 5 crossbow hits to finish off the last opponent.

Issue might be that my unenhanced weapons are going up against their enhanced armor..but it's unclear.
..........................

3) Betting:
Current system seems to pay off bet upon merely surviving a round, even without making a kill. It encourages player to choose Red team and hide out in a 4x6 6:1 match until field is thinned out a bit, and surviving comprtitors weakened. Which strategy can enable player to win full betting potential (1,200dx6 rounds=7,400d) without even winning first/second/third place in tourney. And without being exposed to excessive danger.

Why not give player two options: new system (round by round, <200 persistant bet); and the old, winner-take-all poker-style, where he can bet on himself every round with diminishing odds to win the pot--which'd could be either first place (simple), OR only player to survive all rounds alive.
>>>>>>>>>

The new tourney system is potentially completely modular: a) new/old betting; b) new/old weapon selection; c) standard/enhanced equipment.

 

[Windyplains]

It also allows--nay encourages--players to "turtle" into their best weapon specialization--like sword and board.

Which is why your opponents are significantly tougher than native.  In the end the goal is all about having more fun.  I honestly believe that giving a player the ability to use the kind of weapon they want achieves this and for those that do not, I have given them the option to randomize.  Consider that your opponents (even in native) are equally skilled in all weapons while you and your companions are not.  This leveled that ground a bit.

Why have any enhancements to armor, weapons, etc at all?  It's been one of the most complex aspects of the mod for me to grasp, and really complicates it, imo.  <cut> Having said that, I now like them, now that ive gotten how to use them to my turtled advantage. But the learning curve was a bit steep and frustrating.

This would add more complexity to the code then value gained.  The extra options were to make something a viable choice vs. always having a mount or always having a backup ranged weapon.  Having them available increases the player's choice of fighting in a way that matches their own style which was my aim in designing the new tournaments.

2) Damage:
With almost maxed ironskin & strength and enhanced armor I'm still getting sometimes taken out with single hits: 1H, 2H, throwing axes & arrows.  And on the giving end--albeit with unenhanced weapons--even from behind, it's taking me usually 2-3 hits to take out undamaged foes by 1H weapon.

I have not had this experience.  On foot perhaps, but while mounted a 150+ proficiency ride by attack against an unarmored opponent usually results 50+% of the enemy's health removed if not killed outright.  Typically an enhanced weapon will get the job done in one pass more often then not.  Crossbows are definitely noted as being weaker then they should be and have already received a little boosting.

The new tourney system is potentially completely modular: a) new/old betting; b) new/old weapon selection; c) standard/enhanced equipment.

It is completely modular.  Disabled / enabled
Honestly though, some of these options already exist.
[*] You can choose the old weapon selection already.  Simply use "always randomize" and set the tournament design for that town to be the same as native.
[*] You still have a "winner takes all" bet in the final tournament rewards.  Those could be boosted and have the round-by-round wager amounts lowered though to emphasize that more.  I have considered altering it a little though to put half your wager towards a round bet and half towards a total tournament bet which would effectively accomplish what you're asking for.

 

[Skeli]

Hey windy

Now I haven't read all the posts before so i'm just repeating someone sorry, consider yourselves warned

I'm not gonna comment on the whole combat thingy you outlined cause I'm just not understanding it right now (1 in the morning) but I will happily give feedback on the whole betting system.

First of all, I think that the current system is of equal value to the proposed system (team bet and single bet) but they influence players in different ways. The team system is great as in players who can't/arn't good at fighting still can have a enjoyable time trying tourny's by removing/reducing the penalty of death.  It also forces the player to think much more strategically as the winning team get the most points, meaning a player can/will utilse the different commands to bring the element of strategy found in the field into the tourny. On the other hand the new system is designed to reward players (i'm talking about large bets in both cases) for getting into the thick of things by kicking ass and taking names. This means that players will obviosly try and either get team-mates killed, or out of the fight so they get the best chance of getting max kills/points.

So what i'm trying to say is that if it wasn't to hard to do, you could use the new system to bring back the "death match" like fights that would be found towards the end of the vanilla tournys (like last 8-16 people) and keep the current system for big fights early on. Of course death has to have some kind of impact for this to work so once more if its not to hard, you could have a winner and loser board.

e.g
if you have ten combatants in 1 tourny, at the end of the first fight, the bottom 3 players (least points) would get moved onto the "loser" board

winner      loser
7                3

then at then end of the tourny you have the winners (the last 3 winners left) and a top runner up (the top 3 on the loser board)

winner      loser            no reward
3                3                  4



of course as this idea was thought up in the last 5 min its quite rough but I hope you can understand
hope you like the input

 

[hieronymos]

The native model is based on an elimination system (like tennis), where contest is finally narrowed to the final 1:1 fights, for a winner-take-all pot. In early rounds, player doesn't necessarily have to make any kills--just stay alive.

The point-based system is entirely based on aggragate number of kills (like golf), and can always be changed round by round in terms of difficulty levels; but requires player to rack up the kills throughout if he wishes to win.
......................
Being able to additionally place "side bets" like in the native system, on winning 1st place, would be very cool, imo.

But I am a bit confused: when I make my 200d/round persistant bet, do I simply have to be part of the winning (surviving) team to collect? Or do I have to be a surviving member of the winning team to collect?
.....................
Just tried maximum easy combat settings (25% damage to player, slowest combat, lowest combat AI) in a tourney at Tihr, where I was mounted, with sword&board, plus enhanced armor. Was able to handily finish in 1st--despite horse-unfriendly tourney field. The problem is remembering to change the settings back up after the tourney...

 

[Windyplains]

So what i'm trying to say is that if it wasn't to hard to do, you could use the new system to bring back the "death match" like fights that would be found towards the end of the vanilla tournys (like last 8-16 people) and keep the current system for big fights early on.
<...>
hope you like the input

I am actually planning on providing a design option to setup tournaments as "elimination" or "performance" based.  Performance is the current system in Floris and would function the same.  The "elimination" setup would function identical to the native tournaments in a round by round elimination of the worst scoring participants.  This would be a player option.

And I always like feedback.  Good, bad or indifferent as long as it is constructive.  It has changed my mind on design decisions a few times so far.  The entire tournament design system (which is still in its beta effectively) was built entirely based on player feedback.

But I am a bit confused: when I make my 200d/round persistant bet, do I simply have to be part of the winning (surviving) team to collect? Or do I have to be a surviving member of the winning team to collect?

Your team simply needs to be the winning team.  You're not wagering on your own success.  You're wagering on the team's success.  This is why this thread began to ask whether betting should follow teams or the player.  The system of bidding a certain number of points made and earning greater rewards based on the higher bid would have been entirely player based.  And scalable to just about any player skill level.

 

[Windyplains]

After looking at the voting results and thinking on the design aspect a bit more this is what I am going to do:

The tournament "bid betting" system is going to be implemented as a replacement to the current team betting.  I'd like folks to give this a try and see what they think.  If everyone hates it then I'll consider shifting it back, but I think folks might find it more flexible then the current system.

The extra "enhanced options" will not be implemented.  While there's a good 50/50 divide this change is a bit more controversial in nature and might feel more intrusive to players that didn't want the change then beneficial to those who do.  Folks are still welcome to come up with ideas for new viable options that a majority approve of though.

 

[Songyu]

I have only two small complaints with the current tournament system, otherwise it is simply
great and far more interesting then the vanilla one.

Well, for one, some arenas are very small, which in itself isn't a problem, but they are also
stuffed with props like water, hills, puppets or trees, that simply make it almost impossible
for the AI to effectively move around on horseback. Especially one of the swadian ones,
can't remember which one, it is simply overfilled (one side is all trees, in the middle a hill
with water around it and the other side mostly puppets) for its rather small size.
The same goes also to arenas with bushes that block the players sight but doesn't hinder
the AI ranged units, seriously annoying at times.

And another thing that might just be me doing something wrong, is that the lances seem to
be overpowered in melee combat. I don't mean the +300 damage, crouched in full charge,
but in melee where the combatants are side by side, lances do almost always 30+ damage,
even though in reality it would be impossible to poke someone with a blunt, 2 meter
(~6.5 feet) stick who is so near, he/she could bite of your nose (I first wrote he/she could
kiss you, but that would sound kinda weird for opponents right? ).

Although I'm not sure why the AI uses lances in every situation anyway, wasn't there some
configuration for that? If they are on horse and ranged they always take a melee weapon
when some enemy gets to close, but the lancers keep using them everytime...
Hmm.. I have to check for that.

 

[Lorca]

Also I think there are too many tournaments.. As soon as I complete a tournament quest I almost always immediately get another. Tournaments should be much rarer but very special thing with the possibility to make a lot of money and renown.

I have not changed the native settings on how common tournaments occur, but with the quest popping up they are more visible then they were before.  You could reduce their consistency using TweakMB options.

The option is greyed out in the TweakMB. Any idea?