To anyone who says "Buggy mess after 8 years"

[sniparsexe]

This is gonna be a very long post and I'm not a native English speaker so there will be mistakes, If there is a part you can't understand let me know

So, why TW couldn't finish their work in 8 years?! Let's start.

Taleworlds is located in Middle East Technical University which is located in Ankara, Turkey. You are probably saying "and ?" rn.

A) Coding in Turkey: First of all please don't make politics. In Turkey coding is much harder than coding in a European country, no not because Turkish people are stupid and can't learn to code. Because coding is a kinda new thing in Turkey and although we break that bias still there are many people who say "Why people are earning money from writing something while sitting, can't they just be a teacher or something?" Yes, there are people like this in all countries but in Turkey, there are just more, not like 30-40 million (There are 82 million people living in Turkey btw) but I can say at least 5 or 10 million people because they think coding is too easy for being a job or coding isn't a reliable job. As I said we are breaking this bias very fast also government support coding and encouraging kids to learn how to code

B) Gaming in Turkey: There are many people in Turkey who think like gaming is what stupid people do. They are the people who think coding isn't a job but there are also people who consider coding a job and respect to that but hates games. There are at least 10 million people who will say "Are you still playing games?" or "Go read some books don't play games" or something like these when they see you playing games (though we are also breaking this bias very fast since most of the children is already playing mobile games etc.) and it is RIGHT NOW. In like 2012 it was like 25 million. So what about MAKING games, now I'm not sure about this one but I think there are at least 6 million people who will make fun of you when you say "I'm making games" again we are breaking this bias very fast.

Now how this correlates with the process of developing isn't that important, A and B are important but not as important as C, they affect C. But A and B is mostly about losing your passion about coding, there are more people that will say "go find a real job" when you say "I'll make games"
so that can cause you to lose your passion for coding which affects mostly C.

C) Know-How. As I said coding is kinda new in Turkey and making games is like that too. Armagan himself says there isn't know-how in Turkey. They know how to code theoretically but not practically, There are 100 employees at the TW RN but I'm pretty sure half of the coders are students who are still learning how to code. Armagan himself says so. He says our friends (employees) learning while making the game we also learn how to manage while we make the game. So basically Armagan is also learning how to manage, they are INEXPERIENCED


Time to check the structure of Bannerlord.

Bannerlord is a SANDBOX game.

A) Making sandbox games is harder than making linear games. There are limitless ways to play Bannerlord, I think I can say making a sandbox game is at least 10x harder than making a linear game.

B) Bug checking in sandbox games is pretty hard since there isn't a way to play, bug checking is pretty hard

There are other things that make making sandbox games harder, I'm not gonna write all of them, I can at least write like 10-15 additional reasons. Now combine making a sandbox game without enough know-how. Imagine you are a student who is learning how to code and wanted to make a game. When you say which companies are making games, in Turkey I don't think there is a big gaming studio except for TW. So students choose TW. This is like an indie studio trying to make a game like GTA, biting off more than one can chew. Don't forget there isn't a bigger studio than TW when it comes to gaming in Turkey (there may be in mobile gaming though not sure) so saying "I'm working at Taleworlds and making Mount&Blade" is like saying "I'm working at Rockstar and making GTA" in Turkey among your friends. and bannerlord is one of the biggest sandbox games out there.

Now, the classical "They made their own engine!" line. I found a video where I think a channel whose sponsor is Taleworlds (yep I just checked it) visits Taleworlds studio, the video is a little bit cringy but someone added English subtitles so you can watch it here the interesting part in this video is this, now check the date Jun 5, 2014, 2+ years after they announced Bannerlord. after 3:27 Senior Developer basically says we are developing our engine, which I think means they didn't finish the engine. I couldn't find it but I can swear I saw a video and in that video, a dude said we are developing our engine, I can't remember the date but I think it was early 2015. So I think we can say Bannerlord isn't in serious development for 8 years but in serious development for around 5 years still long but shorter (can a dev confirm/deny this?)

Also there is a communication problem between the devs and player base, I'm not gonna comment about this one, but communication problem is one of the biggest reason bannerlords status. Players like @Noudelle @Gab etc. gave incredible feedbacks in beta IIRC they didn't even get an answer.

Thanks for reading, again I'm not a native English speaker so there are probably lots of mistakes, if there is a part you can't understand let me know (I'll probably edit this thread if more comes to my mind)

 

[Younes]

Buggy mess after 8 years

 

[sniparsexe]

Buggy mess after 8 years

Bruh

 

[stevepine]

That was very interesting and informative. I've been to Turkey and was quite impressed with the culture and the people. I get the feeling that the Turks are a complicated and often misunderstood people.
Anyway, thankyou for writing this. It was really enjoyable to read.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Very good post thank you.

Edit: On the topic, the only bug I've had in weeks now is when you click a NPC name in dialogue and it takes you to your characters encyclopedia page. Honestly I can just let it slide because it doesn't actually change anything. There's easily 100 things i want added or changed in the game, but it's very playable now. I've been playing a very long intensive campaign (EDIT: Now Broken)and feel the base game is in good shape.

 

[sniparsexe]

That was very interesting and informative. I've been to Turkey and was very impressed with the culture and the people. I get the feeling that the Turks are a complicated and often misunderstood people.
Anyway, thankyou for writing this. It was really enjoyable to read.

Glad you enjoyed, thank you

Very good post thank you.

Thank you

 

[Theofilos]

Nice post.Im from Greece so i understand completely the first half of it but some decisions they made didnt require all this knowledge but they failed there too.Good news is there is still time to recover and they seem to have swifted the way they do things i hope for good this time,cheers!!!

 

[stava88]

Buggy mess after 8 years

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

There are limitless ways to play Bannerlord

Lmao give me a ****ing break

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

That was very interesting and informative. I've been to Turkey and was quite impressed with the culture and the people. I get the feeling that the Turks are a complicated and often misunderstood people.
Anyway, thankyou for writing this. It was really enjoyable to read.

Yeah don't understand Turkey from this guy either lol

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

This is gonna be a very long post and I'm not a native English speaker so there will be mistakes, If there is a part you can't understand let me know

So, why TW couldn't finish their work in 8 years?! Let's start.

Taleworlds is located in Middle East Technical University which is located in Ankara, Turkey. You are probably saying "and ?" rn.

A) Coding in Turkey: First of all please don't make politics. In Turkey coding is much harder than coding in a European country, no not because Turkish people are stupid and can't learn to code. Because coding is a kinda new thing in Turkey and although we break that bias still there are many people who say "Why people are earning money from writing something while sitting, can't they just be a teacher or something?" Yes, there are people like this in all countries but in Turkey, there are just more, not like 30-40 million (There are 82 million people living in Turkey btw) but I can say at least 5 or 10 million people because they think coding is too easy for being a job or coding isn't a reliable job. As I said we are breaking this bias very fast also government support coding and encouraging kids to learn how to code

B) Gaming in Turkey: There are many people in Turkey who think like gaming is what stupid people do. They are the people who think coding isn't a job but there are also people who consider coding a job and respect to that but hates games. There are at least 10 million people who will say "Are you still playing games?" or "Go read some books don't play games" or something like these when they see you playing games (though we are also breaking this bias very fast since most of the children is already playing mobile games etc.) and it is RIGHT NOW. In like 2012 it was like 25 million. So what about MAKING games, now I'm not sure about this one but I think there are at least 6 million people who will make fun of you when you say "I'm making games" again we are breaking this bias very fast.

C) Know-How. As I said coding is kinda new in Turkey and making games is like that too. Armagan himself says there isn't know-how in Turkey. They know how to code theoretically but not practically, There are 100 employees at the TW RN but I'm pretty sure half of the coders are students who are still learning how to code. Armagan himself says so. He says our friends (employees) learning while making the game we also learn how to manage while we make the game. So basically Armagan is also learning how to manage, they are INEXPERIENCED

Enough about Turkey. Time to check the structure of Bannerlord.

Bannerlord is a SANDBOX game.

A) Making sandbox games is harder than making linear games. There are limitless ways to play Bannerlord, I think I can say making a sandbox game is at least 10x harder than making a linear game.

B) Bug checking in sandbox games is pretty hard since there isn't a way to play, bug checking is pretty hard

There are other things that make making sandbox games harder, I'm not gonna write all of them, I can at least write like 10-15 additional reasons. Now combine making a sandbox game without enough know-how. Imagine you are a student who is learning how to code and wanted to make a game. When you say which companies are making games, in Turkey I don't think there is a big gaming studio except for TW. So students choose TW. This is like an indie studio trying to make a game like GTA, biting off more than one can chew. Don't forget there isn't a bigger studio than TW when it comes to gaming in Turkey (there may be in mobile gaming though not sure) so saying "I'm working at Taleworlds and making Mount&Blade" is like saying "I'm working at Rockstar and making GTA" in Turkey among your friends. and bannerlord is one of the biggest sandbox games out there.

Now, the classical "They made their own engine!" line. I found a video where I think a channel whose sponsor is Taleworlds (yep I just checked it) visits Taleworlds studio, the video is a little bit cringy but someone added English subtitles so you can watch it here the interesting part in this video is this, now check the date Jun 5, 2014, 2+ years after they announced Bannerlord. after 3:27 Senior Developer basically says we are developing our engine, which I think means they didn't finish the engine. I couldn't find it but I can swear I saw a video and in that video, a dude said we are developing our engine, I can't remember the date but I think it was early 2015. So I think we can say Bannerlord isn't in serious development for 8 years but in serious development for around 5 years still long but shorter (can a dev confirm/deny this?)

Thanks for reading, again I'm not a native English speaker so there are probably lots of mistakes, if there is a part you can't understand let me know (I'll probably edit this thread if more comes to my mind)

What you say in your post is true but I don't think that's necessarily the main reason why Bannerlord is in such a bad state. Plenty of well made games (system-based ones too) have come from countries with hardly any history of game development or coding (especially eastern europe in the 90s and 00s).

What's more I would also say that nonlinear games aren't nearly as difficult to produce as you would assume. There are hardly any low budget linear games because it is much easier to design a system and let the gameplay unfold around that, than to make a game with set levels and specific experiences, in part because players expect a lot more audiovisual qualty from linear story games than from sandbox titles.
Can you imagine if Taleworlds tried to make a linear singleplayer campaign like The Last Of Us? They wouldn't just need good coders, they would need better animators, better writers, better artists and better sound designers to even come close to an acceptable level for a linear experience.

Also bannnerlord has been in development for at least 9 years and there is stuff from 2013 screenshots which is still in the game.

 

[sniparsexe]

Nice post.Im from Greece so i understand completely the first half of it but some decisions they made didnt require all this knowledge but they failed there too.Good news is there is still time to recover and they seem to have swifted the way they do things i hope for good this time,cheers!!!

thank you

Lmao give me a ****ing break

aren't there?

Yeah don't understand Turkey from this guy either lol

I'm living in Turkey and this is completely true numbers might be wrong but the idea is true.

 

[Gambles]

You could pretty much sum up your whole post as "Making games in Turkey is harder, also sandbox games are harder I think". I'm also not sure if it's appropriate in this day and age to blame someone's incompetency on their nationality, especially in regards to something universal like coding. The world is pretty connected these days, it's a bit ignorant.

 

[DaN_CZ]

The real reason Bannerlord is so bad is that they dont listen to their community. They do things their own way and force-feed us with crappy new mechanics and features that are no fun nor working. Finally i have a feeling that developers themselves dont cooperate well with each other. Warband is quite succesful even when it was made by "few" people and mainly it is much more enjoyable. That's my point of view...

 

[sniparsexe]

What you say in your post is true but I don't think that's necessarily the main reason why Bannerlord is in such a bad state. Plenty of well made games (system-based ones too) have come from countries with hardly any history of game development or coding (especially eastern europe in the 90s and 00s).

What's more I would also say that nonlinear games aren't nearly as difficult to produce as you would assume. There are hardly any low budget linear games because it is much easier to design a system and let the gameplay unfold around that, than to make a game with set levels and specific experiences, in part because players expect a lot more audiovisual qualty from linear story games than from sandbox titles.
Can you imagine if Taleworlds tried to make a linear singleplayer campaign like The Last Of Us? They wouldn't just need good coders, they would need better animators, better writers, better artists and better sound designers to even come close to an acceptable level for a linear experience.

Also bannnerlord has been in development for about 8 years and there is stuff from 2013 screenshots which is still in the game.

Yes, Coding in Turkey part's A and B isn't that important, the important one is C, know-how. What you said is true but people are starting from little games. That is also why I said " biting off more than one can chew". What I meant by linear games isn't big games like TLOU or God of War but more AA games, I'd say Bannerlord is an AA game, there aren't that much sandbox AA games

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

aren't there?

what?

I'm living in Turkey and this is completely true numbers might be wrong but the idea is true.

Your argument is based largely on numbers; "so like there are a lot of people who don't play video games or code". I mean, yes? Ignorance, bias and snobbery are present in Turkey as they are in all nations, but definitely not to the extent you make it out to be, a considerable amount of the youth play video games often and consist even large playerbases in many games, and even more people know someone who does play. But you haven't bothered to explain HOW that correlates with game development in a mostly enlightened university environment.

 

[sniparsexe]

You could pretty much sum up your whole post as "Making games in Turkey is harder, also sandbox games are harder I think". I'm also not sure if it's appropriate in this day and age to blame someone's incompetency on their nationality, especially in regards to something universal like coding. The world is pretty connected these days, it's a bit ignorant.

You're right, it isn't harder practically, you can get a laptop and start coding. It is harder mentally, I'm sure there are other people in other countries think like this but in Turkey there are just more. There are more people who will say "lmao coding isn't a job" and break your desire.

The real reason Bannerlord is so bad is that they dont listen to their community. They do things their own way and force-feed us with crappy new mechanics and features that are no fun nor working. Finally i have a feeling that developers themselves dont cooperate well with each other. Warband is quite succesful even when it was made by "few" people and mainly it is much more enjoyable. That's my point of view...

Oh yes communication, I totally forgot about this one, especially in beta

 

[sniparsexe]

what?

I mean there are limitless way to play bannerlord

Your argument is based largely on numbers; "so like there are a lot of people who don't play video games or code". I mean, yes? Ignorance, bias and snobbery are present in Turkey as they are in all nations. But you haven't bothered to explain HOW that correlates with game development in a mostly enlightened university environment.

I thought you could understand, I'll edit it, how it correlates with game development isn't in a university environment but more in a family environment, maybe you know Turkish people love jokes, when you say "I'm coding games" there are more people who will say, "coding isn't a reliable job go find a real job" or "so you are making games that kill children" or in a family environment, some of your relatives will make fun of you, of course, you can ignore them but also you can lose your passion, desire about coding that will affect your work pace. A and B is important but not as important as C, know-how. A and B effects C

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

You're right, it isn't harder practically, you can get a laptop and start coding. It is harder mentally, I'm sure there are other people in other countries think like this but in Turkey there are just more. There are more people who will say "lmao coding isn't a job" and break your desire.

If they're one of us highly intelligent apes they should have realised by now that they have millions of fans in and outside of Turkey. I can't imagine that same ape begin sobbing after hearing a "back in my day" comment from some random old man on the street.

I mean there are limitless way to play bannerlord

Not by any definition of the word in the English language.

I thought you could understand, I'll edit it, how it correlates with game development isn't in a university environment but more in a family environment, maybe you know Turkish people love jokes, when you say "I'm coding games" there are more people who will say, "coding isn't a reliable job go find a real job" or "so you are making games that kill children" or in a family environment, some of your relatives will make fun of you, of course, you can ignore them but also you can lose your passion, desire about coding that will affect your work pace.

Again those types of comments come in many forms in many other aspects of life including professions. You've developed / are developing one of the most anticipated and well-received products in an industry, maybe millions of people are supporting your work and your grandma commenting on your job security and reliability gets you? That should have very little - if any - emotional impact on an emotionally stable and healthy human being. Explaining that to family is even easier than to the random old man because they're familiar with your life and if you make a good example of the person you are, and, as someone affiliated with the very sector they criticise, correct their misbeliefs and make them see reason which is what I've seen and experienced happen. Nearly all parents I've come across have kept up with the times, at least on their view of video games.

 

[sniparsexe]

If they're one of us highly intelligent apes they should have realised by now that they have millions of fans in and outside of Turkey. I can't imagine that same ape begin sobbing after hearing a "back in my day" comment from some random old man on the street.

I have a friend who stopped making games after hearing so many "back in my day", it depends on your psychology. As I said, A and B affects mostly C.

Not by any definition of the word in the English language.

Are we really doing this?

Again those types of comments come in many forms in many other aspects of life including professions. You've developed / are developing one of the most anticipated and well-received products in an industry, maybe millions of people are supporting your work and your grandma commenting on your job security and reliability gets you? That should have very little - if any - emotional impact on an emotionally stable and healthy human being. Explaining that to family is even easier than to the random old man because they're familiar with your life and if you make a good example of the person you are, and, as someone affiliated with the very sector they criticise, correct their misbeliefs and make them see reason which is what I've seen and experienced happen. Nearly all parents I've come across have kept up with the times, at least on their view of video games.

Depends on your psychology, it can get you. As I said I have a friend who stopped making games after hearing so many "back in my day" no he isn't mad or crazy, he doesn't like hearing those kinds of things so just stopped making games. "Nearly all parents I've come across have kept up with the times" this is also why I said, "we are breaking this bias very fast". You are speaking about 2020 or after 2012. Anyone who is working on bannerlord since 2012 is born in at least 1990's. which also affects know-how because in 1990's most of the people were more bigot (no politics) than today and didn't want their children to make games.