staticgrazer
Recruit
That's weird, I never saw them sellable for more than 4k, and that was quite rare.
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The trade skill guide. Or, how do I raise my trade skill enough to buy a settlement for the banner quest?
- Thread starter staticgrazer
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Recruit
That's weird, I never saw them sellable for more than 4k, and that was quite rare.
Maximum997
Squire
I sold 3 of them and my trading grew from 79 to 82 instantly. But it happens very late in the campaign.
staticgrazer
Recruit
Fair enough.
I don't remember where precisely I got the idea when I read your post initially, but something like this:
Implied to me that large single transactions were the only way.
Maximum997
Squire
staticgrazer
Recruit
Yeah that's entirely fair.
Changed it to:
"So there is one solution to help improve the amount of skill gained to accommodate the new gap in experienced needed for the higher levels."
staticgrazer
Recruit
I only wish I could see the year difference, or figure out what factors come into play to generating higher prices.
Is that your asari horse seller on both?
Do you already have a kingdom?
Has one of the other kingdoms (or maybe your own) held a peaceful rain?
Maximum997
Squire
Day 1434
It is my new char with trade about 80
No i have no kingdom
Some wars are going i dont know.
I dont use any economic mods. I use only mods like dismemberment, crosshair and Detailed character creation.
May be BL tweaks are doing this idk.
staticgrazer
Recruit
Genuinely don't know on that one.
Out of curiosity, are you still within the 10 years for the banner quest?
Maximum997
Squire
Nope. It was failed after 10 years. So i cant make my kingdom anymore.
staticgrazer
Recruit
Oof, I don't suppose you remember how long (in game years) it took to get the skill needed to purchase settlements?
Maximum997
Squire
I wasnt doing a lot of trading in early game(i wanted to test another skills) but i am totaly sure you can raise it to 225 before quest ends.
I've been contemplating the way recorded buy price is reset by 2 events:
1. Loading the game.
2. Buying a new single item.
Obviously 1 is a bug. Version continuity of save data is a tricky thing, and its possible we won't see that fixed for a while because of the likelihood of the fix breaking people's saves.
For 2 I'm wondering whether to view it as an optimisation opportunity for people who do the research or read guides (or get lucky), vs an overly basic design that should be improved. I love digging up optimisation opportunities in games, but I'm inclined to view this as a design that should be improved. Effectively what @staticgrazer identifies as the difference between buying for skill gain vs buying for profit shouldn't exist - they should require the same strategy.
Intuitively that should mean that your buy price for each type of item should be stored, and buying more of it should update the average rather than reset the recorded buy price of the entire stack. A quick example/thought experiment to confirm this makes sense:
You have 50 grain that you bought at 10 denars each. You sell 5 at 13 denars creating 15 denars of profit [(13-10) * 5]. Lets say your troops then eat 20 units so now you have 25 left. Selling and eating doesn't effect the average buy. You find grain on sale for 7d, if you bought 1 your average would barely change. If you bought 25 your average would change to 8.5d. If you bought 100 your average would change to 7.6d [(10d * 25 + 7d * 100) / 125].
After a long winter campaign your troops have eaten 120 units and you've only got 5 left. You haven't seen it cheap for as long as you can remember. You buy 30 units at 20d so your men don't starve. This drives the average up to 18.6d [(8.5d * 5 + 20d * 30) / 35]. Obviously at that point you're not going to "sell for profit" until you've bought more at a low price in the future.
Seems to hold water on first pass. Can anyone think of a scenario where using average buy wouldn't make sense?
1. Loading the game.
2. Buying a new single item.
Obviously 1 is a bug. Version continuity of save data is a tricky thing, and its possible we won't see that fixed for a while because of the likelihood of the fix breaking people's saves.
For 2 I'm wondering whether to view it as an optimisation opportunity for people who do the research or read guides (or get lucky), vs an overly basic design that should be improved. I love digging up optimisation opportunities in games, but I'm inclined to view this as a design that should be improved. Effectively what @staticgrazer identifies as the difference between buying for skill gain vs buying for profit shouldn't exist - they should require the same strategy.
Intuitively that should mean that your buy price for each type of item should be stored, and buying more of it should update the average rather than reset the recorded buy price of the entire stack. A quick example/thought experiment to confirm this makes sense:
You have 50 grain that you bought at 10 denars each. You sell 5 at 13 denars creating 15 denars of profit [(13-10) * 5]. Lets say your troops then eat 20 units so now you have 25 left. Selling and eating doesn't effect the average buy. You find grain on sale for 7d, if you bought 1 your average would barely change. If you bought 25 your average would change to 8.5d. If you bought 100 your average would change to 7.6d [(10d * 25 + 7d * 100) / 125].
After a long winter campaign your troops have eaten 120 units and you've only got 5 left. You haven't seen it cheap for as long as you can remember. You buy 30 units at 20d so your men don't starve. This drives the average up to 18.6d [(8.5d * 5 + 20d * 30) / 35]. Obviously at that point you're not going to "sell for profit" until you've bought more at a low price in the future.
Seems to hold water on first pass. Can anyone think of a scenario where using average buy wouldn't make sense?
staticgrazer
Recruit
Yes, fish, Ansari horses, (VERY large price differences) and maybe large quantities of a goods you've collected.
If I have 3k grain that has averaged around 15ea, and I sell or lose it all and buy more later starting at 9ea how would that affect my average? Wouldn't that make me need to buy an absurd quantity at 9 or lower to bring my average up?
There's also , how would using city or castle stashes come into play? If they're in stash I don't think they get eaten, and they're certainly not available for the markets use.
Theoretically. I could use the Buy All The Things strategy, and just stash it all in a city and never sell any of it.
So yeah, how would the average change if I single handedly crash the world's economy?
If you have the capital to crash the economy, all bets are off. Real life economic systems fail when there is that much concentration of capital and the intent to abuse it, so I'm not too concerned if the game can't solve that problem. Or to frame it differently, the problem then isn't that the game's economic system can't handle that much concentration of capital, the problem is that the game's system allows that much concentration of capital to occur in the first place.
To address your 3k grain example bought at 15d, literally you say that you have sold or lost it all before buying it later at 9d. In that instance the 15d you originally bought at is irrelevant (or more accurately, has already been dealt with at the times you sold or lost it) as you are buying at 9d from a starting point of zero stock. As such your average buy is 9d. The average buy price is static until you buy again, losses and even sales don't change it except by making it easier for a future purchase to move the average, and also the corner case of your stock being reduced to zero at which point the average buy price becomes null, then the next purchase sets a new average buy price subsequently. There is no need to record complete buying history, only the current buy average which is updated when each buy is made based on the old buy average and old stock level.
If you still had the 3k bought at 15d when you started buying at 9d then yes, you would need to buy an absurd quantity at 9d to change the average - and so you should. If you want trade skill gains from buying that much grain at 15d, you need to sell it at more than your bought it. Buying 1 additional unit at 9d then selling your 3,001 units at 10d is a net loss of approximately 15,000d [3,000 * 15d = 45,000d + 9d = 45,009d spent, sold at 3,001 * 10d = 30,010 gross income, that's a 14,990d loss] and should not be rewarded with skill gains.
Economically, the magnitude of variation a good can have (such as for horses) also shouldn't matter. Average cost of acquisition minus average cost of disposal = actual profit regardless. A horse lost in battle is treated the same way as a bag of grain consumed.
The stash question is a really good one, I hadn't thought about that. Because this is a single player game I think we can afford the luxury of solving that problem in a simple way while preserving the integrity of the economics by treating stashes as extensions of your inventory. If you buy 3,000 units of grain at various prices averaging 15d and stash them around the world it is no different to carrying it with you. There shouldn't be any opportunity to hack your Trade skill gains by stuffing the grain under your mattress and pretending it doesn't exist - if you bought 3k units of grain at 15d and want to be rewarded for disposing of it, you need to dispose of it to the market at more than 15d no matter when and where you do it. If you lose it because your town got captured, that's no different to it getting eaten: loss of stock doesn't effect your buying average and is not relevant to it. What loss DOES do is reduce the amount you have, and thus makes it easier to move the average with your future purchases.
staticgrazer
Recruit
This kind of conflates, because whether I no longer have the goods because they are stashed in a city across the map, or given to a companion who was then 'lost' from the clan shortly afterwards. I don't possess the goods any longer, so I don't think they should count towards this theoretical average price you're suggesting.
I can't imagine the processing toll taken on the game for tracking the thousands and thousands of grain, flax, or fish I traded at each market. Or how an individual piece of grain may have been moved by me multiple times.
No. I think that the current bartering system works okay (except for the purchase table portion).
If I could change two things about the game economy at currently exists, it would be the purchase table, and maybe something that can be done with some of the goods after purchase.
Bring wood, metal, clay and food to a ransacked village to help it grow faster.
Provide extra meats, cheeses, wines for a festival for extra...idk happiness or whatever.
Launch cows over walls during a siege to make the inhabitants sick and shorten the siege.
Release starving boars into hideouts to flush out the bandits.
Donate tools to villages for a growth boost.
Give you caravan extra donkiesz or hell just give them goods at all.
Provide extra goods to workshops for an additional output of goods.
Things like that.
staticgrazer
Recruit
Thank you! My first video game guide.
My guide to skill gain trading is pretty simple, when you are under 50 skill point, you can gain 30-40 skill point with the cost of around 20-30k denars for a minute worth of trade after you set it up and it can be repeated as much as you are lucky enough to be able to keep doing, what you do is pretty simple, you gather a lot of one type of item, you go to somewhere traders rarely travel like ostican which i have found is a near perfect spot. Now, you need a LOT of items, like wool, 600 is good for up to 125 skills, a 1000 can bring you all the way to trading with settlements in no time. So what you need to do is to hyper stimulate the market. Buy up all wool in ostican, preferably in the neighboring city too just in case they get a trader coming past while you are grinding the skill. Anyways, once you are ready, dump it all in a nearby village, now wait for the villagers to bring goods to town, once they enter the town, buy the remaining wool in the village at low prices, buy them at ostican for whatever price and sell it all at the village again, rinse and repeat, the first couple times should be enough to hyper stimulate the market, so you buy at bottom prices and sell at sky high prices, when you make a "profit" of 200 for each wool you sell in the village, you gain trading skills like crazy. At around 600 it costs roughly 15-20k denars for each trade, but its worth it when you can afford it.
Now AI caravans can ruin everything for you, because you are making a self contained feedback loop, you buy all the wool so the prices skyrocket and sell it again so it plummets to the bottom again and again, but a cheeky caravan can sell a small amount of wool and completely destroy your feedback loop because it suddenly notices that it had two trades to sell wool to dirt cheap which means it triggers something that says that it actually has a steady income of wool which means the feedback loop is now impossible to continue for a little while because the price now averages out a bit, you could also have a caravan come in a buy your dirt cheap wool which will raise the price and cause you to gain less skills, it won't destroy the feedback loop tough, but loosing 100 wool when you have 600 in circulation means that you will just barely have enough to keep the feedback loop going so it just aint worth continuing.
It is cheesy, and for around 200k denars you can grind the trading skill to the very top, probably less if you can gather enough of the resource you want to trade for skills first. However, i go for around 600 the first time around to get the renown for profitable workshops/caravans and then i do a second round around the map for more wool whilst earning renown and getting more money to keep doing it.
Now AI caravans can ruin everything for you, because you are making a self contained feedback loop, you buy all the wool so the prices skyrocket and sell it again so it plummets to the bottom again and again, but a cheeky caravan can sell a small amount of wool and completely destroy your feedback loop because it suddenly notices that it had two trades to sell wool to dirt cheap which means it triggers something that says that it actually has a steady income of wool which means the feedback loop is now impossible to continue for a little while because the price now averages out a bit, you could also have a caravan come in a buy your dirt cheap wool which will raise the price and cause you to gain less skills, it won't destroy the feedback loop tough, but loosing 100 wool when you have 600 in circulation means that you will just barely have enough to keep the feedback loop going so it just aint worth continuing.
It is cheesy, and for around 200k denars you can grind the trading skill to the very top, probably less if you can gather enough of the resource you want to trade for skills first. However, i go for around 600 the first time around to get the renown for profitable workshops/caravans and then i do a second round around the map for more wool whilst earning renown and getting more money to keep doing it.