Swine flu. What's happening in Mexico?

[Moss]

*Shuffles along the aisle, awkwardly bumping into peoples legs, apologising, sits down awaiting the coming science quote war*

Cool, I'll be the guy who sits behind you and laughs at inappropriate points. Then yells "DON'T GO IN THERE THERE'S ZOMBIES IN THAT ROOM!" Right before someone goes in there and finds out that there are zombies in that room.

Not familiar with immune system antibodies, are you? Not all evolution happens on the genetic level.

Yes. Antibodies are only useful after infection. And they don't 'evolve' any more than a chick is an evolution from an egg.

Yes, but immunity is inherited. They may only be useful after you're infected, but in most cases they're present before you're infected. You inherit the immunity of your mother through the placenta and breast milk and there is such thing as a "better immunities", so they meet all the requirements for evolution. Inheritable, variable factors that are impacted by environment and offer a survival benefit. Simple as that.

If immunity wasn't inheritable, there'd be a lot more south and central Americans dying of chicken pox.

Now I'm like the guy who says really loudly "Oh, I know this one! I read a summary on the internet, turns out it was the monkey butler all along!".

 

[Cleaning agent]

Westernised countries are likely to be hit harder thanks to our habit of sterilising every ****ing thing we can. Not a smart move when you posses an immune system which depends on frequent exposure to work. If you're capable of living long enough for flu to be a concern in an LEDC on the other hand you're probably well equipped to fight it without medical assistance.

Of course, if you live in the UK you're ****ed either way. Sit it out at home and hope you don't contract pneumonia, or go into hospital and try not to contract MRSA.

Case mortality rates from flu are higher in LEDCs than MEDCs... that said maybe you're right, I'm not sure if they count secondary infections as flu deaths or not.

Of course we all know that the solution is just to ingest three kilos of antibiotics a day, so there's no worries.

 

[Mage246]

Not familiar with immune system antibodies, are you? Not all evolution happens on the genetic level.

Yes. Antibodies are only useful after infection. And they don't 'evolve' any more than a chick is an evolution from an egg.

Oh I don't know, antibodies are pretty useful when it comes to stopping a flu outbreak from becoming a pandemic, because there's always a chance you've been exposed to that strain before -- or one like it. Not so with a cross-species virus, as your body is extremely unlikely to have run into anything like it before. So yes, a cross-species flu virus *is* more worrisome than the flu virus that has been afflicting us (and mutating too, of course) for many years.

 

[Gculk]

Not familiar with immune system antibodies, are you? Not all evolution happens on the genetic level.

Yes. Antibodies are only useful after infection. And they don't 'evolve' any more than a chick is an evolution from an egg.

Small pox, North American natives.  Enough said.

 

[ChurchOfFonz]

Not familiar with immune system antibodies, are you? Not all evolution happens on the genetic level.

Yes. Antibodies are only useful after infection. And they don't 'evolve' any more than a chick is an evolution from an egg.

Small pox, North American natives.  Enough said.

I think you mean North American Enjiens.

 

[Lyze]

Moss's post and Mage's last post have it nailed.
If it weren't for time zones, I would've said the same thing.

 

[Archonsod]

Oh I don't know, antibodies are pretty useful when it comes to stopping a flu outbreak from becoming a pandemic, because there's always a chance you've been exposed to that strain before -- or one like it.

If you had been, you wouldn't be infected. Unless your immune system is overwhelmed.

Not so with a cross-species virus, as your body is extremely unlikely to have run into anything like it before. So yes, a cross-species flu virus *is* more worrisome than the flu virus that has been afflicting us (and mutating too, of course) for many years.

The virus is also unlikely to have run into anything similar before. Until it starts specialising it's far less effective at infecting our cells. One already specialised with human DNA on the other hand usually only breaks out when it mutates to bypass the existing defences, and it's already focused on replicating within our cells.

 

[William Johnson]

We are in the middle of a HAMdemic

 

[Moss]

If you had been, you wouldn't be infected. Unless your immune system is overwhelmed.

Not entirely true. Your immune system doesn't stop you from getting infected in the first place, it's simply a matter of it wiping out the infection quick enough that you don't show any symptoms. In most cases that doesn't happen though and the more prepared immune system simply fights the infection more competently, shortening the length and severity of the disease.

The virus is also unlikely to have run into anything similar before. Until it starts specialising it's far less effective at infecting our cells. One already specialised with human DNA on the other hand usually only breaks out when it mutates to bypass the existing defences, and it's already focused on replicating within our cells.

This is the precise worry about a swine or bird flu outbreak. It's origin in another animal makes our immune system unprepared for it, but it's genes from a human virus make it capable of human to human infection. Right now swine flu is a rather weak virus, however if it was to mutate into a more lethal strain it could become quite problematic. The key word here being "if".

To be honest an outbreak of a totally antibiotic resistant disease is a far more apocalyptic scenario. And considering that they already exist and we're making stronger and stronger ones each year through improper use of antibiotics.... DUNH, DUNH, DUNH!

 

[Archonsod]

Not entirely true. Your immune system doesn't stop you from getting infected in the first place,

It does. With sufficient exposure to a virus the body can defend itself through a variety of means, whether making the cells themselves impervious to infection or simply tweaking the temperature or hormonal content of the bloodstream.

it's simply a matter of it wiping out the infection quick enough that you don't show any symptoms.

Symptoms are generally a result of your body defending itself. Lack of them is either a really good sign, or a really bad one.

This is the precise worry about a swine or bird flu outbreak. It's origin in another animal makes our immune system unprepared for it, but it's genes from a human virus make it capable of human to human infection.

Only a portion of the viruses RNA is compatible with human genes. It doesn't matter how good it is at entering our cells, unless it's changed sufficiently to be capable of replication in there it's not going to do much beyond go dormant. With a human virus on the other hand our cells are an ideal environment for replication.

To be honest an outbreak of a totally antibiotic resistant disease is a far more apocalyptic scenario. And considering that they already exist and we're making stronger and stronger ones each year through improper use of antibiotics.... DUNH, DUNH, DUNH!

They've existed for a long time. They're not that important to be honest; antibiotics are used to treat bacterial infections which can be combated, often far more effectively, through basic hygiene and health discipline. For the most part, bacterial infection requires a third party agency to enter the body in the first place.
The real apocalypse would be the activation of one of our dormant retroviruses. Fighting off a virus invading the body is one thing, trying to cope with one which is part of your DNA quite another.

 

[Lyze]

The real apocalypse would be the activation of one of our dormant retroviruses. Fighting off a virus invading the body is one thing, trying to cope with one which is part of your DNA quite another.

Oops. Already happened. 2005, a team of American and European researchers (IIRC) pieced together the genetic code of a 250,000 year old retrovirus, and named it the Phoenix virus, for its apparent rebirth. I'm sure its under lock and key, or even destroyed, though.

 

[Mage246]

A virus that starts out harmless and lays dormant, then later turns deadly (like a swine flu, potentially), is far more dangerous than one which starts out harmful (normal flu, for example). Also, Arch seems to have completely forgotten that a virus that spreads from pig to human would have little to no difficulty in replicating, as human and pig cells are quite similar.

 

[Lyze]

A virus that starts out harmless and lays dormant, then later turns deadly (like a swine flu, potentially), is far more dangerous than one which starts out harmful (normal flu, for example). Also, Arch seems to have completely forgotten that a virus that spreads from pig to human would have little to no difficulty in replicating, as human and pig cells are quite similar.

In-deed.

 

[Moss]

Not to mention the fact that the virus contains enough segments of human H1N1 virus to be able to replicate fairly effectively in humans. It's essentially the opposite of the avian H5N1, which is rather deadly, yet **** house at human to human infection. The real threat is that a strain of swine flu that's more lethal than the current one will appear, and considering that unlike H5N1 it's more than capable of setting up a large pool of infected people for that strain to emerge in, it's more one of those "if rather than when" things.

It does. With sufficient exposure to a virus the body can defend itself through a variety of means, whether making the cells themselves impervious to infection or simply tweaking the temperature or hormonal content of the bloodstream.

That would be genetic adaptation, that takes generations. Simple immunity is gained from memory cells that help to identify the pathogen quickly, allowing the immune system to ramp up infection fighting methods before it can multiply to a state where it gets damaged. The reason why you don't catch the flu after just having it isn't that your body has now adapted to it body temperature is only altered during infection and the change in hormonal content would last a few days after infection at most, it's because any infectious materials you may get sneezed on you would feel a bit like walking into a room full of very alert and numerous people with guns, or lymphocytes with guns, whatever.

Symptoms are generally a result of your body defending itself. Lack of them is either a really good sign, or a really bad one.

A fever is a defense mechanism. Most of the other symptoms are caused by the virus, if they didn't cause any symptoms (i.e. damage) they wouldn't be a threat, and more importantly they wouldn't be able to transfer between individuals.

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

Can I just say I predicted the science quote war? Because I ****ing did.

 

[Elenmmare]

You did, my good sir.

 

[Gculk]

Can I just say I predicted the science quote war? Because I ****ing did.

Science quote war checklist:

Is Archonsod involved? Y/N

If yes, a science quote war will occur.

 

[arbites_augmented]

And Mage.

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

Can I just say I predicted the science quote war? Because I ****ing did.

Science quote war checklist:

Is Archonsod involved? Y/N

If yes, a science quote war will occur.

From skimming the argument, it seemed like he lost too. That's unusual.

 

[Gculk]

Meh, Arch isn't all he's cracked up to be.