For those who might be confused at references to the ongoing conversation about the future of modding in Bannerlord, I've compiled some relevant tidbits across a few threads and conversations so it's easier to understand without reading an entire novel.
I don't want this post to prompt any distracting brigading on that thread or duplicate the ongoing + technical Modder/Dev conversation there, so I'll ask y'all to please confine the discussion to what this discussion portends for Bannerlord's future from the perspective of fans. To be explicit: that thread is doing a good enough job of getting dev attention and focusing on the relevant tech instead of general complaints, so please don't @ them here.
I've updated this - let's just call it an article - a couple times since I started keeping track and will do it again if I see anything new.
FIRST REPORT:
3 months ago the teams of 12 Bannerlord TC mods signed an open letter begging the TW devs for relatively simple fixes to problems that make complex modding impossible in Bannerlord.
Even if those fixes happened today, those mods would still take years to produce... so further delays are pushing TC mods far into the distance. Moreover, they pointed out that building BL without mod support in mind wouldn't save any time, since it would take much more time and effort to build mod support back in later.
We recently got our first substantive "we're making changes" response to that letter.
Basically they responded to concerns about the biggest problem keeping TC mods from happening - the haphazard over-use of access modifiers - by saying that they're going to make the problem both worse and better on a case-by-case basis. No explanation. No elaboration.
Bloc - the modder behind Freelancer and others - publicly ragequit on hearing the news. Kingdoms of Arda modder Jance stopped short of that, but vented frustration at total lack of TW communication on this or any issue at all. The other responses weren't much better.
@Bloc suggested the only rational explanation for this behavior is that the devs want to block off portions of the BL code to protect future DLC/microtransactions from competition with modders.
He also clarified that he wouldn't have been frustrated with any of this behavior if TW hadn't spent years hyping modder-love saying things like "Modders have always played a key role for the Mount & Blade franchise" and promising full access to the engine + dev tools on Day One.
UPDATE #1:
TW Dev Duh replied to the thread, stating unequivocally that the internal flag is NOT an attempt to restrict modders but is in fact something they use to enforce good code practices inside TW.
To quote: "Access modifiers are not added because of modders. It's done as part of our work and for our work."
Modders called BS on this explanation, saying things like "bad practice ship for TW's codebase is already sailed", "Your product will be valued first by its functionalities, not how pretty and neat the code base is." and "Actually replacing (or even just disabling) those systems is nearly impossible because of the nested/hard-coded dependencies, which is critical for total-overhaul mods."
They suggested that TW could easily solve the problem for modders AND maintain good coding discipline by simply removing access modifiers on release branches.
The dev's had already responded to that suggestion with "No" and apparently haven't changed their minds. (edited to clarify timeline)
UPDATE #2:
Echoing many TW defenders on Steam and Reddit, one forum user repeatedly tried to get the devs' attention by asking whether the devs WERE actually restricting modders contrary to what Duh said but had a really good reason: copyright law.
The devs ignored those @'s and then a forum mod then smacked that user down for derailing the thread with that nonsense.
UPDATE #3:
EDIT: LOL Reddit mods just labeled this post "MISLEADING".
Was getting too many upvotes, I gather. But they can't stop the signal.
If you are hearing this, you are the resistance.
EDIT EDIT: ROFL THEN THEY DELETED IT.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: ROFLCOPTER THEY UNDELETED IT!!!
UPDATE #4:
Kingdoms of Arda modder Jance - the OP of the the Open Letter - called me out for putting this conversation on blast, suggesting that my "(arguably) inflammatory posts" aren't helpful.
I respectfully disagree. I obviously have an opinion, but I believe it's better overall for us fans to be able to click the links and follow the conversation to judge for ourselves. This community has suffered from a lack of insight into the goings-on with this game and the result has been rage on either side based on rumor rather than fact.
With that said: PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF **** DO NOT BRIGADE THE DEVS. That would be the single worst thing for everyone - conversations with TW are a rare thing and we shouldn't make them rarer by defecating where we eat.
UPDATE #5:
1.6.0 has dropped!
And then it got pulled!
I don't know what happened after. Will update when I have time to figure it out. This meme is funny, though.
UPDATE #6:
GOODNEWSEVERYONE.jpg!!!
There is now a dedicated and detailed discussion thread for the access modifier issue. KOA modder Jance replied, "This is a fantastic start! This will open up alot of doors for modders"
Fans are @'ing Bloc to see if this changes things enough for him to come out of ragequit retirement.
Reactions to the 1.6.0 release are mixed but surprisingly positive given the recent fan angst. Aside from modding concerns, people are happy that smithing is finally getting some love after a long period of neglect. Some users reported that the post-pull hotfix is stable and playing solidly - with only minor issues introduced.
There is confusion about an "Elephant DLC" module that apparently dropped with the first iteration of the patch - nobody is sure if this is an accidental leak or an inside joke or both. It could give credence to concerns about devs limiting mod access to skeletons so modders can't upstage paid DLC for elephants by just modding in their own - but so far the community is reacting with cautious optimism.
AFAIK, despite a number of official replies in the patch thread,nobody at TW has clarified the "Elephant DLC" situation.
WRONG! Callum made a somewhat vague statement saying it was an accidental release of experimental product.
I don't want this post to prompt any distracting brigading on that thread or duplicate the ongoing + technical Modder/Dev conversation there, so I'll ask y'all to please confine the discussion to what this discussion portends for Bannerlord's future from the perspective of fans. To be explicit: that thread is doing a good enough job of getting dev attention and focusing on the relevant tech instead of general complaints, so please don't @ them here.
I've updated this - let's just call it an article - a couple times since I started keeping track and will do it again if I see anything new.
FIRST REPORT:
3 months ago the teams of 12 Bannerlord TC mods signed an open letter begging the TW devs for relatively simple fixes to problems that make complex modding impossible in Bannerlord.
Even if those fixes happened today, those mods would still take years to produce... so further delays are pushing TC mods far into the distance. Moreover, they pointed out that building BL without mod support in mind wouldn't save any time, since it would take much more time and effort to build mod support back in later.
We recently got our first substantive "we're making changes" response to that letter.
Basically they responded to concerns about the biggest problem keeping TC mods from happening - the haphazard over-use of access modifiers - by saying that they're going to make the problem both worse and better on a case-by-case basis. No explanation. No elaboration.
Bloc - the modder behind Freelancer and others - publicly ragequit on hearing the news. Kingdoms of Arda modder Jance stopped short of that, but vented frustration at total lack of TW communication on this or any issue at all. The other responses weren't much better.
@Bloc suggested the only rational explanation for this behavior is that the devs want to block off portions of the BL code to protect future DLC/microtransactions from competition with modders.
He also clarified that he wouldn't have been frustrated with any of this behavior if TW hadn't spent years hyping modder-love saying things like "Modders have always played a key role for the Mount & Blade franchise" and promising full access to the engine + dev tools on Day One.
UPDATE #1:
TW Dev Duh replied to the thread, stating unequivocally that the internal flag is NOT an attempt to restrict modders but is in fact something they use to enforce good code practices inside TW.
To quote: "Access modifiers are not added because of modders. It's done as part of our work and for our work."
Modders called BS on this explanation, saying things like "bad practice ship for TW's codebase is already sailed", "Your product will be valued first by its functionalities, not how pretty and neat the code base is." and "Actually replacing (or even just disabling) those systems is nearly impossible because of the nested/hard-coded dependencies, which is critical for total-overhaul mods."
They suggested that TW could easily solve the problem for modders AND maintain good coding discipline by simply removing access modifiers on release branches.
The dev's had already responded to that suggestion with "No" and apparently haven't changed their minds. (edited to clarify timeline)
UPDATE #2:
Echoing many TW defenders on Steam and Reddit, one forum user repeatedly tried to get the devs' attention by asking whether the devs WERE actually restricting modders contrary to what Duh said but had a really good reason: copyright law.
The devs ignored those @'s and then a forum mod then smacked that user down for derailing the thread with that nonsense.
UPDATE #3:
Beta e1.6.0 is likely to land this week, yes. Is it possible it won't due to some unforeseen event? Yes. So don't hang me by the rope if it doesn't
EDIT: LOL Reddit mods just labeled this post "MISLEADING".
Was getting too many upvotes, I gather. But they can't stop the signal.
If you are hearing this, you are the resistance.
EDIT EDIT: ROFL THEN THEY DELETED IT.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: ROFLCOPTER THEY UNDELETED IT!!!
UPDATE #4:
Kingdoms of Arda modder Jance - the OP of the the Open Letter - called me out for putting this conversation on blast, suggesting that my "(arguably) inflammatory posts" aren't helpful.
I respectfully disagree. I obviously have an opinion, but I believe it's better overall for us fans to be able to click the links and follow the conversation to judge for ourselves. This community has suffered from a lack of insight into the goings-on with this game and the result has been rage on either side based on rumor rather than fact.
With that said: PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF **** DO NOT BRIGADE THE DEVS. That would be the single worst thing for everyone - conversations with TW are a rare thing and we shouldn't make them rarer by defecating where we eat.
UPDATE #5:
1.6.0 has dropped!
And then it got pulled!
I don't know what happened after. Will update when I have time to figure it out. This meme is funny, though.
UPDATE #6:
GOODNEWSEVERYONE.jpg!!!
There is now a dedicated and detailed discussion thread for the access modifier issue. KOA modder Jance replied, "This is a fantastic start! This will open up alot of doors for modders"
Fans are @'ing Bloc to see if this changes things enough for him to come out of ragequit retirement.
Reactions to the 1.6.0 release are mixed but surprisingly positive given the recent fan angst. Aside from modding concerns, people are happy that smithing is finally getting some love after a long period of neglect. Some users reported that the post-pull hotfix is stable and playing solidly - with only minor issues introduced.
There is confusion about an "Elephant DLC" module that apparently dropped with the first iteration of the patch - nobody is sure if this is an accidental leak or an inside joke or both. It could give credence to concerns about devs limiting mod access to skeletons so modders can't upstage paid DLC for elephants by just modding in their own - but so far the community is reacting with cautious optimism.
AFAIK, despite a number of official replies in the patch thread,
WRONG! Callum made a somewhat vague statement saying it was an accidental release of experimental product.
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