Suggestions

[Simo]

Just tried the mod and I'm really happy for done so! I cannot express in words.

Well, my suggestion is to jump off Calradia. Native belongs to Calradia, 1257 to Northeastern Europe. The factions would be Duchy of Estonia under danish rule (nords); the Livonian Brothers of the Sword, or Livonian Order (swadians), depending on date and historical accuracy; the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (rhodocks); Kievan Rus either as a whole or one or two major princedoms (vaegirs); and of course, the Golden Horde (khergits). Extensive work for map and heraldry is in order to begin this. What is your opinion on the matter Spanky? And fellow mod fans?

Will be back for more!

I'd rather see a new madeup map than a real-life map and keep the original factions. Also more custom heraldry would be nice.. I love the one Lionel has but I can't make a banner that would match it properly so sometimes I just steal all his gear. blue and white is the best combination but unfortunately there's only the griphon (if i recall correctly) and I'm not really a fan of it.

 

[Fitzchivalry]

More content would be awesome, e.g. items, castle and village features, lord interactions. Some examples off the top of my head:

Bascinets and early forms of plate armour would be fantastic.

Arming swords that can be used both single-handed and double-handed.

Adding this would be sweet: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,62492.0.html

 

[LokiPokey]

More content would be awesome, e.g. items, castle and village features, lord interactions. Some examples off the top of my head:

Bascinets and early forms of plate armour would be fantastic.

Arming swords that can be used both single-handed and double-handed.

Adding this would be sweet: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,62492.0.html

Good man. Good, good man! I love the idea of adding a bit of plate, even if it's just a shoulder pad or two. Maybe a breast plate. By mid/late 13th Century, most knights were *completely* equipped with plate from head to toe. So, why not add a bit of plate to the Surcoats? Also, more designs for surcoats. Dueling lords for fame or to the death for rewards or something would be nice. A death system would be spectacular - for both NPCs and the PC. More Khergit armor, and more weapons. That's all I can think of, aside from what others have said, already.

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

By mid/late 13th Century, most knights were *completely* equipped with plate from head to toe.

No.

 

[Fitzchivalry]

Being less pedantic and more helpful would be better I think.

Long story short 13th Century was a transitional phase for armour; plate supplemented, but it wasn't a complete replacement for maille.

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

Being less pedantic and more helpful would be better I think.

One grows weary after the 6th time or so...

 

[LokiPokey]

By mid/late 13th Century, most knights were *completely* equipped with plate from head to toe.

No.

Okay, not *mid* thirteenth.. But Late 13th and Early 14th had a lot of plate parts, whilst late 14th had more *full*plate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

Okay, not *mid* thirteenth.. But Late 13th and Early 14th had a lot of plate parts, whilst late 14th had more *full*plate.

"A lot" as in "armoured surcoat", knee protections, maybe shinguards.

Ie, "a lot" as in, well, "not a lot"
And that would be considering late XIIIth France or Italy, and not the mid XIIIth technological backwater this mod portrays.

*edit*
1320-1330 bibleof Guiard des Moulins:

 

[LokiPokey]

What I was suggesting was, to add a little bit of plate to some of the armours. Like some plated mail, shoulders, wrist guards, maybe even an armguard. [Shrugs.]

At least more surcoat variations. Different designs. Weathered, Torn, Rusted, so on. I don't know.

Regardless, this is still one of the best modules around.

 

[Bayard]

hello ,
First , I think more textures for the custom surcoat and barded warhorse will be nice .
Second , why not more helmets , more colored surcoat ( with heraldy pictures ) , more shields , ...
This mod is very nice , you don't need to add a lot of things 

 

[Bb]

can you make it if you capture a castle the village recruits give off the soldiers as your faction. so i don't have to keep running back and recruiting nords for my army.

 

[SVTCarnage]

Add two handed swords (Bastard swords & Great Swords) and at least throw in plate mail as a rare armor set or somthing that only the leaders of factions wear and or is gifted to you after becoming 100 loyal to a faction.

 

[Bb]

and can you change some of the shield like back to native, cause i dont know who on my side or not (i disable all the grn text and everything) with everyone with random shield design. no1 carrys my banner on their flag/shield/armor except for my heroes.

 

[AvatarJTC]

can you make it if you capture a castle the village recruits give off the soldiers as your faction. so i don't have to keep running back and recruiting nords for my army.

I like this one.

Perhaps make it only work with a messenger post?

 

[Aule_the_creator]

could we have some form of realistic looking troops for the nords?

footmen and trained footmen work as they are, because they are just "leiðang" troops, but top tier troops, like the húskarl and the hirðmaður. I'm a bit confused. First of all, I'm confused why in the historical mod, top tier fighters are actually called húskarl, since húskarl means "house-man", and was always used in the viking era to refer to the hired working men who lived and worked on your farm... as opposed to the þræll, who, well, wasn't exactly hired. If used more broadly, Húskarl can referr to ANYONE who serves in the household, be he a candlebearer, a farmhand, or a hirdmann... How this mistaken labelling of Huscarl stayed in the historical mod for the game escapes me. Secondly, why they are all armed like they were in the 9th century? I'm not sure where this whole "northern troops were armed like their grandfather's grandfathers idea came from, because it' completely whacked out."
As a re-enactor, living in Norway, in a re-enactment group called "Kongshirden Anno 1260", which means "The Kings Hird Anno 1260" in modern day Norwegian, I can safely vouch that we don't wear equipment like that of the huscarls and the hirdmen. We start out with basic tunics (cut out the fur and leather armour, there is no historical basis for it, whatsoever until the early 1300's, when it's called a Coat of plates, and has metal plates underneath it, with the possible exception of in one icelandic saga, where a guy kills his cow and makes his panzari from it), and if someone wants to represent a skutilsvein (a knight), they wear a Panzari (padded cloth/gambeson), chainmail over, medieval chainmail, not viking (which was probably all roman anyway) chainmail, which reaches all the way down your arms, and to your knees, mail chausses, (although these are optional) and a kettlehat. Nasal helmets are allowed, but frowned upon, since no one really used them in the upper tiers of the soldiery. Oh, and a surcoat with the kings colour (not necessarily the kings emblems, but his primary colour, be it red, blue, or pink, whatever the king fancies). We could use great helms, but they're impossible to use safely when fighting, so we only wear those for show, but that wouldn't be a problem for units who actually WANT to kill each other.

If you're a member of the hird, you're wealthy enough, or the king provides your equipment, to own proper equipment. Way before the start of the 1260's, the norwegian kings got all obsessed with the romantic literature of europe, and everyone wanted to be Tristan, not Harold the tanglehaired (also known as Harold hairfair *after* he cut his hair), so I find it extremely unlikey that the king in 1260 did not outfit his hirdmen properly like the southern elite, which they were trying to emulate. Also Kettlehats were prevalent in the northern society, and even the kings wore the kettlehats to war. If we're talking now about some backwater part of denmark in estonia here, it should be noted that denmark is closer to europe, and so this obsession probably happened there earlier than in Norway. I suggest, therefore, and the the footmen and trained footmen keep their tussled appearance, nasal helm and all (sans fur and leather armour, which is just crap), while the top tier troops should be changed to "cavalry-norman cavalry" (and look like the hirdmen do now), while the next step instead of housecarl would be named properly, the rank under Skutilsveinn, and wear a kettlehat and padded cloth like in the maceowski bible, and the top tier footman is called a Skutilsveinn, or Hirdman (or Hirdmand if we're going danish here), and wear the complete panzari/chainmail/single coloured surcoat, and a proper heatershield (with individual heraldry of course, not uniform), and be armed with mainly spears (2h and 1h), and mainly swords, a glaive or two, maybe the odd 2h axe...

I would love to see the northern faction brought up to the correct time period that we are, after all, historically representing in this mod.

I'm sorry that my post is a bit "ranty", I have so much to complain about the northern faction, that I can't organise it all coherently, if any of you got lost in there, read it over again until you get it.

historical sources for the armament of the norwegian hird, would be Konungs skuggsjá, or Kongespeilet, or The King's Mirror.

http://www.mediumaevum.com/75years/mirror/index.html

the english translation.
Look at "weapons for offense and defence" where it is spoken of the mounted knight for a guide of how to arm your hirdmen, both on foot and on horseback.

 

[Skandinav]

Good day,

It is actually peculiar that I have only recently stumbled upon this mod - found it extremely interesting, but then saddened and confused by the strange equipment of the northmen - and then today log into this thread and find a brother from the north who has written almost exactly what I was going to post ( see above body of text ).

As this is my first post here I would first like to express my sincere gratitude for making this mod Spanky ( and others, if any ), IMHO it is the best medieval mod there is for M&B, its really what I've always wanted in many respects ( with a few personal preference tweaks, such as realistic combat and animations and so on ), and the historical approach always has my fullest attention and highest approval.
It works very good in regards to equipment; the period is coming alive with the often odd mix of drab colors and leather and steel and the weapons and armaments of the age; and as you seem  to have put a lot of energy into this aspect, and have been very successful too, I am at a loss why the northmen haven't received the same attention towards historical representation.
Perhaps to make them seem more nordic to the untrained eye ? Anyway, I would argue heavily against it, even though their equipment might work as that of some backward Icelandic, British Isles or Faroese warriors.

Due to the Hanseatic League, and trade around the Baltic Sea in general ( following the danish, swedish and german crusades ) the typical  time-lag of scandinavian acquisition of modern equipment shortened as the Middle Ages progressed. This meant thorough changes in the last decades of the 12th century and the first half of the 13th century.
Southern scandinavian fighting men, like the ones portrayed in this mod, or warriors drawn from the more northern parts of Scandinavia, should be armed not very unlike their Western European peers, danish knights and footmen easily as well-equipped as their german counterparts. Militia even more so.
Plate armor was introduced at the end of the 13th century in Scandinavia ( where iron greaves has been known for centuries ) - mainly to protect shoulders and knees - and the coat of plates were utilized in this same period, scandinavian nobles or influential landowners even adopted ( heraldic ) coats-of-arms in the 12th and early 13th century.
Mail armor was very common among almost all soldiers of some worth, usually in the form of a mail coat, and was used by all kinds of troops, from knights to militia men.
Great helms were also used, primarily by knights in Denmark, but broad-brimmed kettle hats were the most used and favoured helmet in Scandinavia at that time, and among riders/knights of the more northern, secluded parts; norwegian nobility adopted these for some mounted knights, Norway being the most back-ward of the three countries at the time due to its geography. Scandinavian kettle hat brims were usually flatter and shorter than european versions due to the general lack of great siege warfare in the north.
The old viking round shields were never replaced completely, but heater-shields were the most commonly used, by cavalry and infantry alike, but the viking sword went through an evolution in the 12th and 13th century to become, first a hybrid,  then a long, pointed european sword as  we  known them from the age.
Every man in Scandinavia would at the time have tried to obtain a crossbow - the significance of this weapon among the many hunters of these parts cannot be stressed enough. It compares, perhaps, to the affection the Italian States showed these same weapons. And as such they were used for warfare extensively: although the bow was still very popular, the longbow that is, and both ranged weapons were often seen on soldiers who did not normally carry such in the rest of Europe,  ie. norwegian knights ( hirdmenn ) with bows on their backs.

To sum it some of it up, here is what the various social and economic classes was supposed to be carrying ( according to the lanslag of King Magnus Lagaböter of Norway ): the poorest man should posses a shield with an iron rim around its sides, plus a spear and a sword or axe. Men who were one step up the ladder were supposed to bring the same  equipment plus a helmet ( and probably leather armor of some sort ), those in the next rank had the same but with the addition of a mail-shirt. Next would be mounted warriors, with chain-mail with some plates attached, usually with a leather coat on top and a "full" helmet.
This should be corrected a bit when concerning southern scandinavians, whom we're are dealing with in this mod - although I wouldn't at all argue against having the northmen being a bit varied in their dress as to represent both Denmark, Norway and Sweden - I guess some norwegians and northern swedes joined the action around the baltic aswell, and of course not everyone had the newest of the newest even in the south. Even if some arms revolutions were pretty direct and wholly encompassing in Scandinavia, as compared to Western Europe in general.

All of this equipment exists in M&B already, and it is possible to recreate the scandinavian factions almost perfectly.  Many armors, for example the mail with a black leather shirt on top ( forgot the name ), would seem as if actually based directly on its historical counterpart worn by many  danish knights in the last part of 13th century, and if you would, or could, in any way represent the real northmen in your mod it would be pretty darn amazing - although it could affect the variation between the factions for worse, but who cares when realism is in the trade - and I sincerely believe the "nords" would look special anyway.
Another point of note should be all the beards of the nortmen. Similar to issues of equipment scandinavians were heavily influenced by north-western europe, and beards were hardly very common - actually all contemporary art-works show clean-shaven men at this time, the characters of the Order faction in the mod looks much like what the nortmen should look like, also in matters of hair-style. This may seem nit-picky, but is very important for historical immersion in my opinion - ( most ) beards were pre-christian, viking era.

I know time is a rare commodity however, but I just feel this would make so much more of your great mod.
That said, I really wish I could do some of these changes myself, if no one else has the time or will, would any please direct me to a good guide on modding units in M&B ?

Anyway, thank you for your time,  I hope ( and pray ) that some of this can be of some use and will be implemented.

Regards,

EDIT : Never mind my guide inquiry, I'll see what I can make of the Hokie's Troop Editor again.

EDIT II : Infantry used hoses in this period, not boots.

EDIT III : The following quote from Spanky might answer some of our questions Aule :

"The Northmen here, as I'm sure you've noticed, are a little bit behind in terms of equipment. This is based in history, but here it is exaggerated. They are about at the level of the Normans of 1100, who didn't yet wear surcoats. They also aren't fully christianized." - Spanky

 

[Aule_the_creator]

I second all that skandinav said! amazing mod! change the northmen!

although, skandinav, they wouldn't have brought leather armour, since leather is practically useless against sharp stuff. There is a possibility of having the outer layer of a viking gambeson leather, because well-oiled leather is good against warding off water, like if you're raiding or the like, but medieval gambesons of the era would be entirely linen, some 12-20 layers of linen sewn together

 

[Skandinav]

I somehow knew, when I wrote it, that you wouldn't let that leather thing go frænde 

It is an old discussion about leather armor, and let us not delve too much into it.
I highly respect your opinion on the matter as I do respect the practical understanding reenactors naturally achieves through their reenacting. And I agree completely that we have no sources to confirm leather used as armor, none I know of at least. Note that I wrote "..probably leather armor of some sort". I did take it into consideration, and have done so before, simply due to the fact that leather was used as clothes as it is,  as you say, rain-proof, but also because hardened leather is pretty damn strong ( and good in a strong wind together with fur ) - something which I am sure our forefathers acknowledged to its full extent. Leather was also fairly easy to get a hold of, and the proposition exists that leather, as does linen ( or chain ), softens a hit by absorbing some of the blow if thick enough. It has also seen its many, confirmed, uses in war,  though always together with other fabrics.
I remember a discussion once about the greek linothorax, and the proposed theory that it was made of leather ( not just linen as is the dominant view ), and a lot of people had a great many and very different notions of leather and its appliances. A lot depends on which kind of skin it is made of and how this has been treated, and also how the leather has been applied, ie. multiple layers crossing each other, perhaps with linen in between.

But I am no expert, not by any degree, so I'll let it slip into oblivion if you say nay, sir.


Greetings from Denmark


EDIT : I downloaded the Troop Editor and it is excellent and very easy to use. Only problem is it cannot change the beards, but everything else seems possible to change in relation to unit names and appearance.
Anyone know how many different of each item, say helmets, one can make a unit wear with the troop editor ?

 

[RAD_X]

Hi Spanky

Thanks for an awesome and fun mod. I have a few suggestions:

1-Making Recruits available at towns, in bigger numbers than at villages.

2-Ransom prices related to npc level. This way you'll earn far more money from a ransom knight than a poor looter. It works wonderfully in other mods (teatrs, for example.

3-Could it be possible to implement some of Magelords tweaks in standard 1257? I have tried some of them in your mod and I humbly think they enhance gameplay(I know its a question of personal taste):

    3.1 Reduce Morale loss from companions in your party (its *3 now, change it to 1 or 0).
    3.2 Each point in prisoner management allows more prisoners than native (from 5 to 10 seems reasonable).
    3.3 cattle herder following character instead of running away.
    3.4 Changing the morale boost for each Leadership point from 7 to 10, for example. It would allow bigger armies without so huge morale penalties.

Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance

I second that.

Magelord's tweaks are amazing, i use all 4 of the above mentioned and many more.

Ive got a couple of suggestions

Giving lords of the Vaegir Rus the title of Boyars instead of just theyre names?Since Boyars were the land owners and next to the princes in rule of that time(please correct me if im wrong)And i dont think vassals are the sons of the Grand prince and i find it unfair that they dont have titles!

Well a Boyar (Боярин) was a wealthy merchant, not necessarily a nobleman. A Russian lord of the period would have a title of a Prince (Князь).

Here's what wikipedia (aka the ultimate athority ) has to say

A boyar or bolyar (Bulgarian: боляр or болярин, Ukrainian: буй or боярин, Russian: боярин, Romanian: boier, Greek: βογιάρος) was a member of the highest rank of the feudal Moscovian, Kievan Rusian, Bulgarian, Wallachian, and Moldavian aristocracies, second only to the ruling princes (in Bulgaria, tsars), from the 10th century through the 17th century.

So, technically some of the smaller lords could potentially be boyars, however the lords that rule big cities have to stick with the title of Prince, since original "Князь" looks/reads weird when spelled in latin alphabet -"Knyaz" with a soft "z".


P.S. i always thought it was weird that Khergits used winged maces, or in fact maces in general, i think that should be fixed as well

 

[Latinikon]

Hello folks..;

..Could the almighty creator, bestow upon us, a brand new set of Noble helm, sire?
-Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaat!!!  * ' +p/6&**__
Easily done sire, no worries needed indeed. I present you my lord with THIS  - *! and so he reveals them, placed all on a long table, in a line, side by side !* -
-Hmm, interesting. it is as they intend to be the same, except... hm, interesting.
What in blazes? Speak my lord!

-Noble helmets, master quality they be, the only diference are yellow[/] crosses that singnal our position in a society under the heavens of our Lord.
                                                                                                                                                                                    you see, in different colours they be.

A noble helm with Red cross on it... or black cross... question it is now..
Besides, if someone made our "regular" noble helm, I guess its no biggi to meke different variations as well