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GingerYeoman
Recruit
Raiders are so over-powered it is ridiculous.
Trying to start out in Scotland, get a sizeable force of 40 men, I have a good horse, mail and weapons, want to train my men up, but instead get attacked by some heavily armoured foot-knights who give me no option to pay them off, and are so fast I cannot out run them. The battle starts with me outnumbering them about 2:1, I manage to kill the one of them that isn't in heavy armour before my entire force is slaughtered - even I cannot hurt them and I have a good one handed weapon skill and a balanced berber sword!
Can they at least be made slow on the campaign map so that you can out run them and flee? They've ruined a couple of games of mine now.
Trying to start out in Scotland, get a sizeable force of 40 men, I have a good horse, mail and weapons, want to train my men up, but instead get attacked by some heavily armoured foot-knights who give me no option to pay them off, and are so fast I cannot out run them. The battle starts with me outnumbering them about 2:1, I manage to kill the one of them that isn't in heavy armour before my entire force is slaughtered - even I cannot hurt them and I have a good one handed weapon skill and a balanced berber sword!
Can they at least be made slow on the campaign map so that you can out run them and flee? They've ruined a couple of games of mine now.
It's funny because I have received other complaints about them being too weak and the gap between them and lord parties being too big 
Honestly I don't see them so overpowered. What difficulty are you playing on? I usually play on medium and they're not a big deal once you get a decent party on your side.
Honestly I don't see them so overpowered. What difficulty are you playing on? I usually play on medium and they're not a big deal once you get a decent party on your side.
FALX
Master Knight
I would like to play more characters that are associated with the religious movements of the medieval world. Such as the introduction to the game Tribunal bishops who give in to the Hero mission to eradicate heresy, to capture the castle Cathar capture Lord heretic, etc. But probably will have to enter the monks as visitors locks or tavern or in a church building .
GingerYeoman
Recruit
Too weak? How on earth can they be too weak? Even my guys who weren't just serfs didn't manage to get a kill, how did bandits get so much armour?
Getting a decent party is not an option as once your party gets large enough that you can no longer out run them (About 20 or so guys) they lynch you, the Lord's parties do nothing to help. They've utterly ruined the game for me multiple times.
As for difficult I am playing on medium too, none of my attacks pierced their armour unless I charged in with a horse.
Getting a decent party is not an option as once your party gets large enough that you can no longer out run them (About 20 or so guys) they lynch you, the Lord's parties do nothing to help. They've utterly ruined the game for me multiple times.
As for difficult I am playing on medium too, none of my attacks pierced their armour unless I charged in with a horse.
They're supposed to be brigands, making up for the deserters we cannot have in the mod due to performance issues (map too big to have specific spawn points for bandits as we would need a ****load of them, so instead they spawn randomly in the region the player is on). In any case, I can't believe you find them so so hard to beat I can try to make a video to show generic ways of fighting them if you want
I can try to make a video to show generic ways of fighting them if you want
GingerYeoman
Recruit
Not sure how else you can fight them with a small ish band. I just think it's not really fair that even half decent troops don't even get a single kill because they are so well armoured, and that the second I get my horse killed (from the bazillion thrown weapons they have) I have to find one with leather armour (which their aren't many of, usually 1 or 2) before I can even do some damage :/
kdm
Sergeant
In the beginning of the game I trade for some time to get money so I have to fight raiders on my own. I managed to beat 50+ parties of raiders just by myself using the following tactics. When you spawn you start circling around the raiders on your horse on maximum distance so that they shoot all their ammo with very little chance of hitting you with their arrows/bolts. When they run out of ranged weapons you position your horse away from the approaching band of raiders and aim over your left shoulder with the hunting crossbow. When they approach and are about to hit you shoot at one of them aiming at his head and simultaneously goad on your horse to ride enough to reload your hunting crossbow. Rinse-repeat. If you run out of ammo - restock at the spawning point.
When you are wealthy enough to start training your own band make sure you only hire nobles - all others are useless anyway. When your party is mounted you can outrun anyone on the map so you control who you engage. The general rule is train pages on looters, squires on forest bandits, donzels on mountain bandits and banchelors on the raiders
In general try to experiment, game is very easy once you find its weak spots
When you are wealthy enough to start training your own band make sure you only hire nobles - all others are useless anyway. When your party is mounted you can outrun anyone on the map so you control who you engage. The general rule is train pages on looters, squires on forest bandits, donzels on mountain bandits and banchelors on the raiders
In general try to experiment, game is very easy once you find its weak spots
kdm said:
Oh, I disagree with this so much
The part about soloing entire bands of raiders is spot on though, I've also done it myself when playing the typical Guts-lookalike character. It can be surprisingly easy once you get used to it... a single mistake can be deadly sometimes though (get hit in the head with a javelin and you're almost done).PS: I've been thinkin' for a while about making mounted units even more expensive... maybe just noble mounted units. Considering how good they are and how unstoppable they can be in large numbers when you're wealthy enough to maintain them (something that also becomes really easy once you reach a certain point in the game)... maybe having a large amount of them should be even more prohibitive. There's not much realism in roaming around with a huge band of knights to begin with, and it also makes the game too easy. And maintaining a horse has always been really expensive provided you're not a nomad raider with a lot of free pastures where your horse can feed.
kdm
Sergeant
I'm saying all others are useless because nobles are so much better than anything else in almost all aspects. The only downside is they are more expensive but then money is the easiest part in this gameKorinov said:kdm said:
Oh, I disagree with this so much
PS: I've been thinkin' for a while about making mounted units even more expensive... maybe just noble mounted units. Considering how good they are and how unstoppable they can be in large numbers when you're wealthy enough to maintain them (something that also becomes really easy once you reach a certain point in the game)... maybe having a large amount of them should be even more prohibitive. There's not much realism in roaming around with a huge band of knights to begin with, and it also makes the game too easy. And maintaining a horse has always been really expensive provided you're not a nomad raider with a lot of free pastures where your horse can feed.
That's why making them even more expensive is the easiest but not the best option. I've also been thinking about the possible options how to force the player to maintain the historically realistic ratio of 10 non-noble retainers for every noble knight and these are the options I can think of
- Some troop types can only be hired in groups. A banneret comes with 20 retainers, knight with 10, banchelor with 5 and so on. Also we can extend this to non-noble, e.g. bands of crossbowmen routiers. Also you can only disband the entire group. This is probably the most difficult option to implement but the one I like most
- Have a separate morale points for nobles with much higher requirements
- Limit the number of nobles per settlements owned. E.g. 3 bannerets or 6 knights or 12 banchelors per town, 1 banneret per village and so on
I remember having this discussion with Cèsar a long time ago... we also tried to figure out some ways that would make the hiring and keeping of nobles more realistic, and in the end we basically agreed that there's no way for such a limited engine to make it how it should be (at least not without making the mod unplayable) so the decision to just make them more expensive wasn't changed. Then, of course, it looks they're not expensive enough, and if a Tier 6 noble troop earns 82/83 denars per week as wages (base number, lowered by renown)... it's just too little, as when players are usually able to start recruiting knights it tends to be really easy to make lots of money (just killing off a few raiders each week will award you enough expensive items to pay 30-40 knights with ease, without counting the taxes from your fiefs or the ****loads of money you can earn from enterprises).
The idea is that only a very powerful and filthy rich player character should be able to have around 20, 25 tier 6 knights in the party without quickly getting into absolute bankruptcy. As a short-term solution, I suppose noble's wages should be dramatically increased (it's idiotic to have nobles earning the same as sergeants unit of the same tier anyway).
The idea is that only a very powerful and filthy rich player character should be able to have around 20, 25 tier 6 knights in the party without quickly getting into absolute bankruptcy. As a short-term solution, I suppose noble's wages should be dramatically increased (it's idiotic to have nobles earning the same as sergeants unit of the same tier anyway).
Well Korinov... there is always the "Levy System" idea from BLUE BLOOD. I really love the Levy system, it would be awesome in 1200...but Europe1200 is so fricking huge.
BTW, I thought you were buddies with Sayd Uthman?
TOP Tier knights in Blue Blood can cost up 400/ wk. Couple that with the 3 weeks on duty and one week off for your "LEVY" of troops and it does make it hard or (harder) to keep a big army. You end up supplimenting with Mercs on the OFF weeks when your troops go home to thier famlies.
I'm playing mostly 1200 now... until Sayd comes back for an update.
BTW, I thought you were buddies with Sayd Uthman?
TOP Tier knights in Blue Blood can cost up 400/ wk. Couple that with the 3 weeks on duty and one week off for your "LEVY" of troops and it does make it hard or (harder) to keep a big army. You end up supplimenting with Mercs on the OFF weeks when your troops go home to thier famlies.
I'm playing mostly 1200 now... until Sayd comes back for an update.
kdm
Sergeant
Yeah this levy system sounds very interesting...
How about modifying the moral calculation algorithm so that it penalises any significant deviations from the "ideal" ratio which can be set to something like 10% noble/20% professionals/30% militia/40% rural? Can this be implemented?
This will force the player to use all troop trees
How about modifying the moral calculation algorithm so that it penalises any significant deviations from the "ideal" ratio which can be set to something like 10% noble/20% professionals/30% militia/40% rural? Can this be implemented?
This will force the player to use all troop trees
That would force the player to always lead a warband based on the feudal retinue structure. It would be really undermining to anyone wanting to create a more specific, even roleplaying warband (i.e. imagine you want to play as the leader of a mercenary warband only integrated by light cavalry units). In any case I doubt it would be possible to modify the moral algorithm to do that... the game doesn't have any "social class" system. Only way to make nobles more expensive than everyone else (like I'm going to do) is manually telling the game to increase their wages (i.e. multiply x4 the wages of a certain list of units).
And by the way, the Levy System from BB still doesn't prevent you from making an all-knight army if you can afford it (you'll only have to rely on mercenaries for the week they take off).
And by the way, the Levy System from BB still doesn't prevent you from making an all-knight army if you can afford it (you'll only have to rely on mercenaries for the week they take off).
Staten
Recruit
This is an excelent mod!
As a 13th c reenactor with some milage, I love the visual style and detail. As a player, I also like the map and the many factions.
The only thing I would like to see (that would not require major reworking of the game itself) is an integration of the Diplomacy mod, and the improved battle/formation AI, which would place this way up there with Brytenwalda as my favorite mod. As far as I know the Diplomancy mod is readily available for integration.
Great job!
*golf clap*
PS: On the issue of leavies, one could have the opportunity of raising a leavy by persuading the leader of a settlement. The leavy will then appear as a separate party, and follow you around untill dismissed or time expires. Your relationship with the settlement and the persuation skill determines the size of the leavy, as well as their morale. If you are that settlements lord or king, you can compell them to muster, but they will not like it at all.
Once their morale drops below a certian point, they will start to go home. They will also avoid more powerfull enemies, like other parties.
In this case you might also have the option of herding them in front of you, like cattle. Of course at the risk of them rebelling if your retinue is to weak, they dislike your, and morale is low.
Quite correctly, this means that you can raise leavies from villages and towns you do not rigthfully own, if you have good enough relations with them. Thus, you could build popular support and start a rebellion with a peasant army, or even convince the villagers of the enemy to join you instead of their lord. (Villages would need to get negative relations with characters they are at war with, of course)
In countries with a relatively weak elite and few strong fortresses, such as (my native) Norway, the power of raised leavies caused attack to be more powerfull than defence, and the warring factions ended up chasing each other around from region to region.
Mass leavies could be very large, but a pain to raise and controll. The feudal system was partly a way to avoid this problem by leaving professional nobles rather than unpredictable peasants, and creating strongpoints that could endure attack.
If, and what kind of, leavies to call could be a choice left to you as a lord. For instance, the french would not like their peasantry armed at all. The Norwegians wanted shield and spear infantry. The English leavied their lowest tiers as archers, where their lack of armour and resovle would not be so disasterous. And so on.
But as a nobleman, your retinue is still your main asset.
As a 13th c reenactor with some milage, I love the visual style and detail. As a player, I also like the map and the many factions.
The only thing I would like to see (that would not require major reworking of the game itself) is an integration of the Diplomacy mod, and the improved battle/formation AI, which would place this way up there with Brytenwalda as my favorite mod. As far as I know the Diplomancy mod is readily available for integration.
Great job!
*golf clap*
PS: On the issue of leavies, one could have the opportunity of raising a leavy by persuading the leader of a settlement. The leavy will then appear as a separate party, and follow you around untill dismissed or time expires. Your relationship with the settlement and the persuation skill determines the size of the leavy, as well as their morale. If you are that settlements lord or king, you can compell them to muster, but they will not like it at all.
Once their morale drops below a certian point, they will start to go home. They will also avoid more powerfull enemies, like other parties.
In this case you might also have the option of herding them in front of you, like cattle. Of course at the risk of them rebelling if your retinue is to weak, they dislike your, and morale is low.
Quite correctly, this means that you can raise leavies from villages and towns you do not rigthfully own, if you have good enough relations with them. Thus, you could build popular support and start a rebellion with a peasant army, or even convince the villagers of the enemy to join you instead of their lord. (Villages would need to get negative relations with characters they are at war with, of course)
In countries with a relatively weak elite and few strong fortresses, such as (my native) Norway, the power of raised leavies caused attack to be more powerfull than defence, and the warring factions ended up chasing each other around from region to region.
Mass leavies could be very large, but a pain to raise and controll. The feudal system was partly a way to avoid this problem by leaving professional nobles rather than unpredictable peasants, and creating strongpoints that could endure attack.
If, and what kind of, leavies to call could be a choice left to you as a lord. For instance, the french would not like their peasantry armed at all. The Norwegians wanted shield and spear infantry. The English leavied their lowest tiers as archers, where their lack of armour and resovle would not be so disasterous. And so on.
But as a nobleman, your retinue is still your main asset.
On the topic of Raiders...couple things.
1) I think slowing their overall map travel speed would help. When you are weaker you could avoid them and when you are stronger and want to fight them you could catch them.
2) My only complaint is if I try to field an INFANTRY only style army (and my travel speed is not high enough)... I cannot catch them.
Btw, GingerYeoman...I used Morghs item editor to change a few things and whilst doing so...I noticed that there is one particular item listed as "raider mail" (or something like that) that is 70 AMOR to chest!!!!! (they are NOT Lootable however) I'm not sure if they are actually used by the raiders...it could just be an Item not implemented yet. Neverthe less it's cool to find out though.
For me, I love Europe 1200 and for the most part, allot of these suggestions are just adding sweatness to the PIE....but I don't really have a problem with raiders. IF you can get on a horse and Lance the crap out of them they're easy. I love the challenge. In fact I'd preffer if there were SUPER raider captains or Bosses also included in the Raider Parties. Give them 300 on all skills. Haha, But I guess that would be too much like PoP.
GingerYeoman quote:
Korinov quote:
GingerYeoman quote:
1) I think slowing their overall map travel speed would help. When you are weaker you could avoid them and when you are stronger and want to fight them you could catch them.
2) My only complaint is if I try to field an INFANTRY only style army (and my travel speed is not high enough)... I cannot catch them.
Btw, GingerYeoman...I used Morghs item editor to change a few things and whilst doing so...I noticed that there is one particular item listed as "raider mail" (or something like that) that is 70 AMOR to chest!!!!! (they are NOT Lootable however) I'm not sure if they are actually used by the raiders...it could just be an Item not implemented yet. Neverthe less it's cool to find out though.
For me, I love Europe 1200 and for the most part, allot of these suggestions are just adding sweatness to the PIE....but I don't really have a problem with raiders. IF you can get on a horse and Lance the crap out of them they're easy. I love the challenge. In fact I'd preffer if there were SUPER raider captains or Bosses also included in the Raider Parties. Give them 300 on all skills. Haha, But I guess that would be too much like PoP.
GingerYeoman quote:
GingerYeoman said:
Korinov quote:
Korinov said:It's funny because I have received other complaints about them being too weak and the gap between them and lord parties being too big
GingerYeoman quote:
GingerYeoman said:
Korinov said:
I wouldn't want to be forced to get troop types I don't like. I believe that we should be able to field an kind of army we want to.
Back to Blue Blood stuff (Just some suggestions Korinov...
) Yes, I agree with you 100 % about being able to make an all knight army...but still it's not very easy. At one point, I had a city and few castles with over 100k...But that was 300 + days into the game. As you know if war comes you burn through that money really fast. It's just that what's cool about the levy system is if you start out as a NON noble...you cannot even recruit from villages, castles or towns. You have to use mercs. And ONLY when you join a faction OR CREATE your own, do you can have access to those troops. I know it's not what you have planned for Europe 1200 but I just saying it's pretty cool.
Other suggestions:
I also played Native Expansion allot.... "SoulMata" instilled a new Brutality system that costs or charges you "ReKnown" for every high tier troop type you hire. Just a thought.
One other thing about B. B. ... When it comes to Managing your Castle Garrison, there are options for Rearranging your troops from TOP to Bottom, as in being able to select a group and move them up or down for example.
What sux is if you have a bunch of crappy troops near the top of your defense schema... that's the order in which they come out. Having to manually grab guys and pick and drop them back into the garrison rotation gets tedius sometimes.
Just saying..
anyway, Merry Christmas guys. "O"
