Suggestions and Critique

[GingerYeoman]

Yet another game ruined by Raiders.

The whole "Just run away and shoot at them" is utter crap, and has pissed me off because what on earth do you think the rest of my army does? Somehow not die while the bloody super-men run around?

I had 22 men, granted mostly serfs but with a scattering of higher ranks, a half decent hero, and 6 mercenary crossbowmen. I met a group of 8 (Not 18, or 80, bloody 8!) Raiders in the Irish Sea. No raiders dead (despite two point-blank headshots to the raider captain from my nomad bow) and I end up with 11 guys left, 3 of them wounded. I proceed to flee, but hey, they're raiders! And as we all know there were definitely sprinting bands of heavily armoured knights who attack everything they see who were able to run faster than an Olympic sprinter all day in the year 1200 and so they caught me again and killed almost my entire warband.

You can't pay them off, you can't outrun them, you can't fight them. What is the point of them? What are they there to add to the game other than to **** people off at the start.

Yes, I am angry. This could be a good mod, but every game I've started has been utterly ruined by magical "raiders" appearing out of no where and massacring my entire warband while barely taking a casualty.

"If you can get a horse and a lance"
Again, what does the rest of my army do while I'm prancing around dodging the bazillion throwing weapons trying to lance them? They just have to die, which then ruins the game because my entire force has been killed & I'm left by myself, and it only takes a couple of lucky hits for my horse to die then I don't stand a chance.

Also, what happens when you meet them at sea? You don't stand a chance there either because they just steam roll you because they are magical bandits who can afford better armour than the King of England!

Cheers for committing mod-suicide

*edit*
So I can actually play your mod have used Morgh's thingymabob to remove their silly amount of armour. As for the Raider Armour, the Raider Captain is equipped with it.

 

[ZnasVecKo]

Yet another game ruined by Raiders.

The whole "Just run away and shoot at them" is utter crap, and has pissed me off because what on earth do you think the rest of my army does? Somehow not die while the bloody super-men run around?

I had 22 men, granted mostly serfs but with a scattering of higher ranks, a half decent hero, and 6 mercenary crossbowmen. I met a group of 8 (Not 18, or 80, bloody 8!) Raiders in the Irish Sea. No raiders dead (despite two point-blank headshots to the raider captain from my nomad bow) and I end up with 11 guys left, 3 of them wounded. I proceed to flee, but hey, they're raiders! And as we all know there were definitely sprinting bands of heavily armoured knights who attack everything they see who were able to run faster than an Olympic sprinter all day in the year 1200 and so they caught me again and killed almost my entire warband.

You can't pay them off, you can't outrun them, you can't fight them. What is the point of them? What are they there to add to the game other than to **** people off at the start.

Yes, I am angry. This could be a good mod, but every game I've started has been utterly ruined by magical "raiders" appearing out of no where and massacring my entire warband while barely taking a casualty.

"If you can get a horse and a lance"
Again, what does the rest of my army do while I'm prancing around dodging the bazillion throwing weapons trying to lance them? They just have to die, which then ruins the game because my entire force has been killed & I'm left by myself, and it only takes a couple of lucky hits for my horse to die then I don't stand a chance.

Also, what happens when you meet them at sea? You don't stand a chance there either because they just steam roll you because they are magical bandits who can afford better armour than the King of England!

Cheers for committing mod-suicide

*edit*
So I can actually play your mod have used Morgh's thingymabob to remove their silly amount of armour. As for the Raider Armour, the Raider Captain is equipped with it.

1. Get the following: a horse, a crossbow, a shield (preferably kite), a spear or sword.
2. Get your men into a line at the very beginning if you have archers or crossbowmen. If not, skip this step.
3. Wait until your ranged troops have given the raiders all they have.
4. Order them to retreat (also use this if the raiders get too close).
5. Fight the raiders.
NOTE: Once you defeat them the first time you might get the armor their captain has. This will make your job easier. Also, if you find it too hard, reduce the damage you and your allies take.

 

[Korinov]

Cheers for committing mod-suicide

I love it when people try to blame others for their lack of ability. So far I think you're the first one complaining about the raiders being too strong, rather than too weak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGRnom2syXA

I mean, if you find Raiders impossible... pfffft, good luck when you start fighting lordly warparties, who do not only have way tougher units than the raiders, but also use battle tactics to a certain degree.

 

[quapitty]

uhhhhh - nice video! I like the new designs of the interface.

 

[Subitai]

Cheers for committing mod-suicide

I love it when people try to blame others for their lack of ability. So far I think you're the first one complaining about the raiders being too strong, rather than too weak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGRnom2syXA

I mean, if you find Raiders impossible... pfffft, good luck when you start fighting lordly warparties, who do not only have way tougher units than the raiders, but also use battle tactics to a certain degree.

Like I said earlier... I don't have a problem so much with raiders except not being able to catch them if my pathfinding is too low.

  That video showed a pretty typical tactic which I think everyone has used since the early days of M&B with Rhoduk Crossbowmen.  Set your men up on a HILL, ride around, use hit and run and then finish them.  If the Player party also had "Calvary" he could've done the classic sweeping Pincher movement and Charged them from behind (at the right time of course)

BUT...I'd like to point out that what Ginger said about a SEA or ship battle is correct.  If that same player group (17) was VS the same raider group (12)  AT SEA... The outcome would've definately been different.  No ability to ride around and distract the raiders.  The player would've take some losses for sure. 

That's why I suggested a slight slow down in thier overall map travel speed.  Good for people trying to avoid them and good for people who are in between wars (who need some money) and are trying to catch them. 

But I do not think that the Raiders themselves are too tough...in fact i'm in favor of adding even tougher Raider bosses.  Haha.

 

[Korinov]

Yes, my party would have probably been crushed in a sea battle. The speed thing is true, and I'll try to have a look at it, as it doesn't make any sense for a certain kind of non-mounted bandits to be way faster than anyone else.

 

[GingerYeoman]

1. Get the following: a horse, a crossbow, a shield (preferably kite), a spear or sword.
2. Get your men into a line at the very beginning if you have archers or crossbowmen. If not, skip this step.
3. Wait until your ranged troops have given the raiders all they have.
4. Order them to retreat (also use this if the raiders get too close).
5. Fight the raiders.
NOTE: Once you defeat them the first time you might get the armor their captain has. This will make your job easier. Also, if you find it too hard, reduce the damage you and your allies take.

Or, 6. Sea battle
7. Die.

Or
6. Horse gets hit by a lucky shot to the head from a javelin.
7. Die

Or
6. 3 Raiders ignore you and continue to slaughter your entire band
7. Win, but have no warband left
8. Get caught by another raider band because they are so common
9. Die

It is not a lack of skill in any way shape or form - I have no difficulty in defeating most players in MP nor in ruling the world in most other mods, but starting in Britain is nigh-on impossible because the first thing you meet are raiders, and at some point you must go out to sea because, well, it's Britain.

Nor do I understand how bandits are better equipped than most armies.

Less shields, less mail, less veteran raiders (There always seems to be more veterans than raiders) and a slightly reduced skill so that your guys stand a half decent chance.

Or simply an option to pay them off - they're bandits it's what they want.

You talk of tactics - show me where in any battle in the 1200s the lord rode around firing crossbow bolts at the entire enemy army while his force stood on a hill.

*edit*
In your video your men do a lot better job of killing raiders than mine, my guys always just get slaughtered and the only raiders that have ever been killed in my battles are ones killed by me.

 

[Korinov]

In your video your men do a lot better job of killing raiders than mine, my guys always just get slaughtered and the only raiders that have ever been killed in my battles are ones killed by me.

That's because I'm actually using tactics to fight them. While I distract them, my ranged troops are shooting at them, so one of them actually gets killed before getting to melee. The others receive shots, and some hits from mine, and get weakened, so when they arrive at my infantry line they're quickly disposed. If they would arrive untouched they would simply outmuscle my infantry units, but they don't.

I've told you already, I can't remember anyone else ever complaining about the raiders being too strong - rather the contrary -, so it looks like it's a problem of yours, and yours alone. They have good to decent armors because they're supposed to be brigands/renegade soldiers, the deserters we cannot have in the mod due to performance issues. And the Raider Captain has that certain piece of armor (unobtainable by players) in order to make him a specially tough bastard, but he's still killable (in fact, I've killed him several times myself in a single hit with a spear on horseback).

Only thing I'm fixing is their speed, which is actually really unfair. I'll also have a look at their equipment as if I remember correctly they had some weapons that shouldn't be there. But nothing more. Suggesting that we're doing mod-suicide just for having a group of bandits you alone cannot beat is really unpolite and, from my point of view, an unfair criticism.

And again... if you think Raiders are tough, good luck when you face a true warband.

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Speaking of raiders, I personally don't mind their strength... but adding the ability to pay them off is not a bad idea.

Also, I always thought raiders showed too much bravado in the face of overwhelming odds. Even though they run away from larger parties, when sometimes you do catch up with them, they stick to "we will drink from your skull" dialogue even when you command 100+ high level troops and they have 20!

Adding some situational dialogue would be cool. For example they could try to convince you to spare them by:
1- buying you off (causes honor loss)
2- Sell you some slaves or loot (causes honor loss)
3- Promising redemption
4- Offering to take up your cause and join up with you (decreases your party morale and right-to-rule)
5- Promising you to enlist in a crusade. (if you are a christian lord)
6- Old fashioned pleading innocence. ("we? we are just a harmless band of merry men" or something along these lines.)

 

[kdm]

That's because I'm actually using tactics to fight them. While I distract them, my ranged troops are shooting at them, so one of them actually gets killed before getting to melee. The others receive shots, and some hits from mine, and get weakened, so when they arrive at my infantry line they're quickly disposed. If they would arrive untouched they would simply outmuscle my infantry units, but they don't.

I've told you already, I can't remember anyone else ever complaining about the raiders being too strong - rather the contrary -, so it looks like it's a problem of yours, and yours alone. They have good to decent armors because they're supposed to be brigands/renegade soldiers, the deserters we cannot have in the mod due to performance issues. And the Raider Captain has that certain piece of armor (unobtainable by players) in order to make him a specially tough bastard, but he's still killable (in fact, I've killed him several times myself in a single hit with a spear on horseback).

Only thing I'm fixing is their speed, which is actually really unfair. I'll also have a look at their equipment as if I remember correctly they had some weapons that shouldn't be there. But nothing more. Suggesting that we're doing mod-suicide just for having a group of bandits you alone cannot beat is really unpolite and, from my point of view, an unfair criticism.

And again... if you think Raiders are tough, good luck when you face a true warband.

What is the actual perf problem with the deserters?

In my experience the raider captain takes at least 10 headshots from the hunting crossbow to get killed. They are by far the toughest guys in game 

As for the sea battles - well medieval lords rarely braved the open seas because cavalry is of no use there. So it is kinda realistic.

As I said in the past GingerYeoman should fight alone first and then stick to the nobles. This way you can always outrun the raiders.

 

[Korinov]

What is the actual perf problem with the deserters?

In Native, all kind of bandits (looters,mountain, forest, desert, sea and deserters) have fixed spawn points, and those spawn points are spread all over the map. That allows for region-specific bandits (i.e. forest bandits only spawn in points inside or close to forests, and deserters appear in their correspondent faction territory). However, our mod is just too big for that, as we would need hundreds of spawn points to keep the whole map well populated by bandits in a constant basis, and that would generate massive lag. It was so unplayable before the earliest beta releases that Cruger changed it: instead, bandits spawn randomly in a more or less wide area taking the player's position in the map as a reference (in other words, bandits only spawn "around" the player). If you enable cheat mode and instant-travel to a distant location, you'll notice there will be no bandits there... they'll just take a few seconds to start spawning around your position.

Sadly, this means no regional bandits and no deserters.

In my experience the raider captain takes at least 10 headshots from the hunting crossbow to get killed. They are by far the toughest guys in game 

Well, he's wearing a full helmet after all, but the only "buffed" thing is his body armor, not the helmet. A direct, single, hit to the head with a spear from a player on horseback should kill him. I've done it several times already. Not to mention he'll go down very quickly if surrounded, like pretty much everything else in the game.

 

[corwin_of_amber]

In Native, all kind of bandits (looters,mountain, forest, desert, sea and deserters) have fixed spawn points, and those spawn points are spread all over the map. That allows for region-specific bandits (i.e. forest bandits only spawn in points inside or close to forests, and deserters appear in their correspondent faction territory). However, our mod is just too big for that, as we would need hundreds of spawn points to keep the whole map well populated by bandits in a constant basis, and that would generate massive lag.

I am not a coder so I am not sure if this would work, but if the large number of spawn points is the cause of lag then maybe their is a way around that. You can decrease the number of spawn points but increase the number of bandit parties per spawn point. Then increase the patrolling range of the bandits parties to cover a larger area. This should significantly reduce the lag, while restoring the ability to have region-specific bandits.

 

[Subitai]

Aaaahh COOL Korinov...  I rescind my earlier suggestion that you should add raider Super bosses.  How come I didn't notice the captains being tougher?  Probably because I was lancing the crap out of them. 


I should have checked more closely because it seems that you had already taken care  of (tougher bosses) by having "Raider Captains"..... (SLAPS MY OWN FOREHEAD).

So in addition to slowing  them down alittle...keep the cool TOUGH armor.  But don't Nerf (lessen) the Raider Captians!! 

Just add more of them...haha, mabe 1 captain for every 20 raiders.  That would be awesome!!

 

[M1SZ3L]

Guys really?? Problem with raiders? 

on hard (no damage reduction to player and friends, good AI itp.) i can beat them with 10 Locratus party (or something like this). 

Or maybe that just playing Dark Souls made everything easy.

EDIT: I noticed you guys removed native great helmet but winged one is still here, it's a lite strange,  and we need moar great helmets since they were used in XI century isn't it? Not very popular but still.

Sorry 4 English 

 

[Korinov]

Loricatus ("guy in a lorica" = guy clothed in mail) 

Yeah, the winged helmet... dunno why I decided not to delete it in the past, but it's just too 'futurist' for the mod's timeframe, not just the wings, but the overall design. Regarding the great helmets, we'll be adding dejawolf's newest in next release.

 

[Dicos]

Is it possible to modify the name of a lord/player character depending of the fief he's holding, thus making some sort of title system? Like if you have Paris you become x, Count of Paris.

 

[Korinov]

I believe you can do that manually any time you want in the Character screen 

 

[Dicos]

Yeah but the length is limited. I was thinking about something automatically added at the end of your name...

 

[Fordo]

It could be great to have the tittle, of course you can put it manually if you don't use name and surname in your char...

 

[szarjanoskiskukac]

I understand that you try to be historically correct, but you should change the mercenary system.
I find the already existing troops boring as hell.. No offense guys this is my very favourite Warband MOD.
So is there any way to change it? I mean i could imagine my character to for example siege a Bulgarian Castle with some elite merceneraies which have exciting names. I don't know if it's realistic but I would pay for some African mercs, or Western Knights. I know tahat I can currently train Knights ,but this takes too much time. I would instead buy the for extreme ammounts of money in taverns(eg some wandering knights, or deserted, outcasts)
I hope you consider my suggestion.