Spearmen worthless against cavalry. Really?

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Hughes said:
As has been said, Spearmen (or anyone) in a line won't work against cavalry, you need to bunch them up.
But it should.. I mean, a huge spear (or lance or those kind of long weapons) should be very efective against cavalry. But there are 2 problems here:
1st:  AI using those weapons is not good. Have a look at other games, such as Medieval Total War. When using pikemen they just position themselves (as original said before "couched spear" ) in a way that their lances would hit any cavalry/horse raiding towards them, and hitting them even almost to death.

2nd: AI does NOT know if they are attacked by cavalry. But they should. If a kergit troop of horsemen comes towards me, I would arise my lance/pike so no horse would hit me, but they would be hit by my long weapon. But my AI troops don't know that and they just wait for them with those little hammers or tiny weapons they use (rhodock sargent) and this leads to enemy crushing my rhodocks sargents who should be defending/attacking cavs with lances/pikes (some of those polearms).


So I think almost any troop in this game is useless against an enemy cavalry troop. A group of more than 50  enemy cavalry  equipped with fast horses and polearms would clearly defeat any kind of walking troop, even a +60 spearmen troop. Isn't this true? Even archers or a troop with crosbows won't defeat cavalry, couse their horses speed would be enough to get quick to enemy and charge them with ltheir weapons with few deaths.

Am I wrong?
 
They should have a shield phalanx. Every time i think about trying to make a character that is melee only, i get that thought in my mind that says: oh yea, no phalanx. Without a phalanx the spartans would have nothing.
 
Hughes said:
As has been said, Spearmen (or anyone) in a line won't work against cavalry, you need to bunch them up.

And then what? They'll poke you with a stick? :smile:

You can just as easily bunch up crossbowmen or anything else for that matter. Do you know how much damage spear does at point blank range to Sarranid Mamluke? Zero. Do you know how much damage military hammer or spike club do?

Spearmen are completely useless, either way. I laugh when I fight Spearmen deserters. Sergeants are decent only because they don't use spears but why bother with them when you can go with sharpshooters anyway.
 
I find that the Pike and Blade mod (now featuring Diplomcy too) has some fearsome pike units. The pike seargent and even the earlier pike units together perhaps with some farmers trained to Pikebowmen. Bunch them up and they stop swadian knights... Mamalukes I have yet to find out.

Cheers,

Gerard
 
Pikes should work like horsemen lances or even better, just when held, and if running horseman comes to it...

or maybe not to overpower lances, they should at least dismount riders ?
 
perhaps the easy way is to add a "phalanx" weapon which had bonus against cavalry. Just a tag, like the "bonus against shields" one, named "bonus against cavalry" so if infantry (spearmen) use this Spear against cavalry they could easy knock down those mounted enemies.
 
As some has mentioned, the issue is not with the spears, it's with the AI. Just look at MP, it doesnt matter which weapon the foot soldiers use, they all can survive cavalries.
 
Yeah , I was the one saying that problem was related to AI, but since AI is not going to change (at least soon), I think it could be balanced by adding some weapons (lances/pikes against cavalry) some kind of "bonus against cavalry" tag.
 
Everthen said:
Yeah , I was the one saying that problem was related to AI, but since AI is not going to change (at least soon), I think it could be balanced by adding some weapons (lances/pikes against cavalry) some kind of "bonus against cavalry" tag.
And when we finally get to fix AI we will have to somehow nerf these lances? How about just fix the AI?
 
It is not fixing AI as AI is not buggy right now. It just is not designed way you would like to have it. So AI would need redesign, improvement, whatever you want to call it.

My observation is that AI uses pikes/spears individually correctly. They trust spear and cause my horse to rear and they do it very effectively. So much that I avoid charging spearman head on. They also try to keep effective distance after latest patch. So far so good. However in groups they are totally infective. I would say, problem is that there is no "formation" or "group" AI existing. It does not help that they can trust in to charging horse correctly if whole group is trusting against the same, closest horseman and ignore all others. They would also need to change their weapon more effectively ...by which I mean switching to secondary weapon when horseman is too close for pike to be effective, ...once horsemen broken their ranks that is. This is valid in general, not just for pikeman, AI still cant change weapons very well, even if I see some improvements over last patches.
 
hruza said:
It is not fixing AI as AI is not buggy right now. It just is not designed way you would like to have it. So AI would need redesign, improvement, whatever you want to call it.

I sincerely hope no one actually designed the AI the way it currently is. I prefer to think of it as the devs lacking the time/skills to do it properly, rather than deliberately making it like it is and thinking it's good.
 
Velax said:
I sincerely hope no one actually designed the AI the way it currently is. I prefer to think of it as the devs lacking the time/skills to do it properly, rather than deliberately making it like it is and thinking it's good.

My personal observation say that they dont have the time for it. The built-in functions of the AI are actually pretty good. I havent checked some of the AI mods, but if what they say on the tins being true, M&B's AI is quite capable.
 
Rephikul said:
As some has mentioned, the issue is not with the spears, it's with the AI.

I don't really know about that. I'm playing Pike&Blade, so this might influence my judgement, but OTOH that mod only changes troop stats and loadouts.

And I sure as hell have learned to steer clear of infantry armed with pikes. Or long two-handers, for that matter.

Sure, I might kill one. But my mount is also very likely to be stopped. And the next infantryman to pwn, or at least hurt me.
 
To be honest, nothing much can defeat a Swadian cavalry charge. They are fast, maneuverable, heavily armored, can generate enough force to push through at least a 3-thick heavy infantry wall, they have long weapons that can only be outreached by long spears, they can destroy both heavily and lightly armored troops, have large, strong shields that can withstand extreme force and can only really efficiently be broken by axes, lances or thousands of ranged weapons, they can devastate any troops on a hill not at least with a gradient of 1.5,1, they are extremely effective on foot or on horseback and they are almost invulnerable to anything but heavy blunt/chopping weapons. But they can be defeated. Now, what makes the Rhodok spear-wall so effective is their tight formation. Their heavy infantry remind me of the Romans, with their large shields and short swords. Also, their unique spear-shield combination in similar in design to that of the Spartans. They fight as one unit, and although they may not win a duel in a single combat with an expert warrior, there are few that can best a well-formed Rhodok shield wall. Now, back to the question in hand. A Swadian cavalry charge can decimate a Rhodok shield-wall. Generally. But I know a way. Have a few light cavalry units in your army, preferably low-tier Khergits and at least 5 horse archers. As I, and quite a few all-knight commanders have found while fighting the Khergit faction, it can be extremely annoying trying to fight horse-archers. They are faster than knights, more manoevrable and can ride away while they harry them with spears and arrows. They won't really be good for actually killing the knights, and they will eventually be killed if you don't withdraw them, but they will serve their purpose as distractions for the knights. This will give you more than ample time to find a good place to form a battle line. Once you have found a suitable place (preferably a steepish slope or the crest of a hill), arrange your spearmen in a 3 thick wall (don't worry, the slope will more than account for the horsemen's momentum), and tell them to use their weapons at will. When the knights do come at your troops, the slope will destroy their momentum, their most valuable weapon, and they will hit your wall doing 1 kill maximum (if they're lucky), and then once all their cavalry are stuck, tell your men to charge. The Swadians will generally attempt to retreat, do NOT let this happen. One or two spearmen will be more than enough to stop them from falling back (if they haven't gathered momentum yet). Your men will automatically surround them. The knights will possibly get a couple of kills, but as they have no (or very little) speed, they will not take too many of your numbers, also most of them use morning stars which are only effective with speed, and as such will not be as effective as they would be if they were at full speed on a flat or downward-sloped surface. But, your men will kill them quite soon as some of them (depending on your choice of troop) will probably have large double-handed blunt weapons. There you have it! One of the best anti-knight tactics you can find (I think). Of course, the whole process will be infinitely better if you have a couple of crossbowmen or longbowmen. Place them on a higher slope than your spearmen and just behind and watch the beautiful destruction!

Thanks for reading and good luck!
-Your friend and humble adviser, Ravenos
 
There is a mod that allows you to order the troops special commands.. i.e... spike your spears, which will couch damage incoming horses
 
HenryUnderborn said:
There is a mod that allows you to order the troops special commands.. i.e... spike your spears, which will couch damage incoming horses

only that is just reverses the situation: while spearmen are broken against heavy cav in native, now heavy cav is broken against spearmen with this mod (f.ex. floris), because they would never suicidally crash into spearmen like that.

I say the best defense against heavy cav are trees. Place your infantry and archers between trees.
 
sandoval said:
HenryUnderborn said:
There is a mod that allows you to order the troops special commands.. i.e... spike your spears, which will couch damage incoming horses

only that is just reverses the situation: while spearmen are broken against heavy cav in native, now heavy cav is broken against spearmen with this mod (f.ex. floris), because they would never suicidally crash into spearmen like that.

I say the best defense against heavy cav are trees. Place your infantry and archers between trees.
  If you mean that a frontal charge against a "wall of spears" was suicidal in real life, I disagree.  It was done with great success.  Even if it failed, it was not a suicide.  The losses were low, and cavalry could just retreat and reform for another charge.  And they did.  In one documented case for about 10 times during a day-long battle.

There is a quote of Carolus Gustavus to his troops from just before the Warsaw battle (which he won) when he said that in case of facing a frontal charge they should simply let the horsemen through, because nothing can stop them.

So even if unbalanced, it's not unrealistic that cavalry dominated in the open field battles in Warband.  They did in real life too.  You could counter them by hiding behind field fortifications and using terrain to your advantage, which you can do in Warband too. 

Of course if infantry chose to stay put behind obstacles, they couldn't really destroy the opposing army.  Battles won this way were largely inconclusive, even if some side could be said to "win".  On the other hand, if cavalry won, the other side was crushed.

The disadvantages of cavalry were in the economics (15 footmen for one elite horseman), training required (years vs. months), and limited use.  Cavalry dominated only in field battles, while big part of warfare were sieges.  In a siege without a lance and a horse, a cavalryman was worth just as much as a footman.  Most of his training and equipment were of no use whatsoever.
 
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