Some more issues with unit AI in version 1.2

Users who are viewing this thread

Totalgarbage

Sergeant Knight
The devs are apparently already aware of cavalry often missing foot soldiers and being overly defensive when approaching to attack, and a patch is hopefully on the way soon. However, I still have a few issues with the AI behaviour, both new in 1.2 and old issues still persisting.

Similar to melee cavalry being terrible against foot troops, melee infantry is also terrible against mounted units from my experience; first and foremost, they are too passive against incoming cavalry. Secondly, if a tight infantry formation manages to trap a charging cavalry unit by enveloping the cav, spear infantry attempts to land an attack by taking a step back, which often results in the enemy cavalry being able to escape and the spear unit missing the attack. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

Another issue is a small one, but an important one nonetheless; since the banner bearer of a horse archer cannot use their ranged weapons, they act like a regular melee cavalry and instead do a suicide charge headlong against the enemy formation by themselves and getting killed almost always. The banner bearer of a horse archer formation should always attempt to follow their formation when they're doing a cantabrian circle.

Finally, as @Terco_Viejo has noted several times, the fallback command doesn't work properly for infantry units. Infantry should be moving backwards while facing the enemy with their shields up while under this command. However, this command makes infantry moves to the indicated position with their backs turned, making them vulnerable to ranged fire. Skirmish infantry works a bit better, however they work exactly the same as a regular infantry unit until the enemy gets in range (around 40-50 distance). After the enemy is in their range, they throw their weapons while walking backwards, however they still do a weird "dance" where they face the enemy, walk backwards and throw their weapons -> turn their backs to the enemy to walk forwards -> pick up their throwing items from their "quivers" -> face the enemy again and throw their weapons. It would be better if the skirmisher units always walked backwards while facing the enemy and picking throwing weapons from their quivers. Another issue with the fallback command is that when the formation is in skein (and possibly other formation shapes), the units walk sideways to a different place instead of walking backwards to the ordered position.

Also, this is not an AI issue, but most foot skirmishers are useless due to having very low ammo and/or bad throwing weapons. Most skirmishers have a single stack of throwables, throwing axes and knives/daggers do barely any damage. This should be remedied.
 
I am all up for everything you mentioned. To be honest especially the suicidal banner bearer are immersion breaking.

To be honest another thing that I can't stand is watching the cavalry charge by trying to converge all on the same specific target unit rather than trying to stampede all over the enemy formation.

I wish they would aim to start charging as a formation and try to keep that formation by passing through the enemy lines, turn and go again. I end up asking them to follow me after trying to put them in a wider formation myself, but it's still not even close to what I would like to see.
 
Yes, that's true with cavalry. I wonder why cavalry essentially converges into one or more points when attacking rather than acting more like a lawn mower. Maybe it's because cavalry lines tend to be wider due to cavalry both occupying more space than a foot soldier and also having larger gaps with the soldier next to them compared to foot soldiers, therefore resulting in them "converging" on a point maybe?
 
Yes, I am also noticing the same. Cavalry is worse against infantry in 1.2.0, while at the same time, infantry is worse against cavalry in 1.2.0.

It could sound weird, because if infantry performs worse against cavalry, could be seen like a cavalry buff, but keeping in mind that both units are performing worse against the other one, it is hard to determine which one is the most offended (probably cavalry units).

Cavalry is much better in cav vs cav combats, and against fleeing infantry units though. Plus infantry vs infantry also feels better, but cavalry vs infantry is really bad in 1.2.0 for both sides.
 
Yes, I am also noticing the same. Cavalry is worse against infantry in 1.2.0, while at the same time, infantry is worse against cavalry in 1.2.0.
I think they increased the space between infantry units, resulting in cav not getting stuck even on square or shieldwall formations. They also increased the likellyness of units blocking, resulting on most soldiers raising their shields instead of attacking, even when charging. I hope they fix that before releasing it from beta.
 
I think it has to do with the AI. Even Looters were dangerous when you send your light armored cavalry against them. Now you can send 5 Vlandian Squires against 10-15 looters and after 3 hours and thousands of missed attacks, the squires win the battle.

It is for sure something related to the AI trying to block when cavalry is approaching, instead of attacking as before. Cavalry is also too passive when fighting infantry, and most of the time you can see cavalry units charging while blocking and refusing to attack. It is specially appreciable in the first cavalry charge, when all units charge in formation. Plus, cavalry units still miss a lot of attacks in cavalry vs infantry fights, probably more than before.
 
Last edited:
Yes, that's true with cavalry. I wonder why cavalry essentially converges into one or more points when attacking rather than acting more like a lawn mower. Maybe it's because cavalry lines tend to be wider due to cavalry both occupying more space than a foot soldier and also having larger gaps with the soldier next to them compared to foot soldiers, therefore resulting in them "converging" on a point maybe?

They go for the closest enemy which is almost always the same guy even if both formations are wide, because usually a few men are in front of the line.
 
Plus, cavalry units still miss a lot of attacks in cavalry vs infantry fights, probably more than before.
I had the impression they were more accurate, but are attacking way less than before, they almost never couch lance too. On the current version cav will run through infantry formations with low to no casualties on both sides. The increassed space between units on square formation makes it almost useless vs cav and even archers, as the soldiers are not close enough to protect eachother with the shields.
 
They go for the closest enemy which is almost always the same guy even if both formations are wide, because usually a few men are in front of the line.
It would be a lot better if the game could consider the formations as entities when engaging other formations, much like total war does, instead of each unit being only tied by a positional constraint.
 
There's also another issue that happened to me several times...
It's with melee infantry, when they stand in shieldwall (or so I think it is) forever... you take down the archers, cavalry and they stand there like forever.. I can ride in front of them (or in the back) literally killing one by one and they barely attack, they just hold ground and stay.
 
There's also another issue that happened to me several times...
It's with melee infantry, when they stand in shieldwall (or so I think it is) forever... you take down the archers, cavalry and they stand there like forever.. I can ride in front of them (or in the back) literally killing one by one and they barely attack, they just hold ground and stay.
I just noted it as infantry being too passive, but it's good that you detail it like this
 
One step forward, two steps back™ :iamamoron:

pg-xi.jpg



Yes, that's true with cavalry. I wonder why cavalry essentially converges into one or more points when attacking rather than acting more like a lawn mower. Maybe it's because cavalry lines tend to be wider due to cavalry both occupying more space than a foot soldier and also having larger gaps with the soldier next to them compared to foot soldiers, therefore resulting in them "converging" on a point maybe?
Cry with me brother 🥹
 
There's also another issue that happened to me several times...
It's with melee infantry, when they stand in shieldwall (or so I think it is) forever... you take down the archers, cavalry and they stand there like forever.. I can ride in front of them (or in the back) literally killing one by one and they barely attack, they just hold ground and stay.

I had a battle where archers did this. I was doing test battles in the tool (no mods) and just F6ing to observe unit AI.

The archers lined up behind the infantry but not parallel to them, but perpendicular at a right angle behind them. They fired when cavalry skirmished, but then just stood their ground as the whole battle moved forward and away from them. Eventually the fight was half the map away as the other lines advanced, and they were all just standing there barely in sight much less bow reach.

Eventually I manually commanded them into the fight. Mainly since this run was Battanian and having all your archers, esp some fians just standing in a perpendicular line out of sight saying "No we're tired you all fight" is not going to work with that faction! And no forest cover, it was a dester open map. So I can't see any terrain trigger either.
 
It would be a lot better if the game could consider the formations as entities when engaging other formations, much like total war does, instead of each unit being only tied by a positional constraint.
I don't know how well the formation targeting works, but I'm guessing it was a sacrifice between them being 'individual' agents vs fixed formation like total war; pretty sure the latter's was also just a numbers depreciation vs actual agents within combating.

That would mean, if done in BL, we can only recruit a fixed #/preset batch of units/fixed groupings. BL does it on a more micro level with them all being individual; issue is balancing that and CPU load - so we're stuck with that tendency for all cav or all inf aiming for the first/closest enemy (ie 10 spear thrusts 'wasted' on 1shield).
 
It would be a lot better if the game could consider the formations as entities when engaging other formations, much like total war does, instead of each unit being only tied by a positional constraint.

Don't total war fans hate that system though and wish it was the old way lol? I remember seeing lots of complaints about lack of individual duels going on because the game would only consider it as one blob versus another...
 
Last edited:
I don't know how well the formation targeting works, but I'm guessing it was a sacrifice between them being 'individual' agents vs fixed formation like total war; pretty sure the latter's was also just a numbers depreciation vs actual agents within combating
I guess the advance command kind of works like that, they kind of keep the formation but kind of also fight on their own, i just think there is too much walking back and foward to achieve this, makes it look a little silly.

Don't total war fans hate that system though and wish it was the old way lol? I remember seeing lots of complaints about lack of individual duels going on because the game would only consider it as one blob versus another...
I haven't played total war recently, i don't know what you mean by "old way". What i meant was for units to prioritize sticking to the formation when attacking.
 
Some notes on the 1.2.2 AI; Cavalry seems to miss less often now, but they still miss quite a bit, they still need a bit of fixing. Moreover, they are still wayyyy too defensive. They still tend to hold up their shields while charging rather than trying to attack. A cavalry unit riding by enemy units while holding their shields and not do any damage isn't an uncommon sight. Another issue with melee cavalry is that in my very limited testing, the amount of kills they got if you decided to do a targeted charge is much lower if you just order them to charge without any targets (In my tests both sides had the same number of troops and only 1 formation on each side).

On the other side of the coin, infantry are also wayyyyyyy too passive against cavalry. They basically never attack incoming enemy cavalry unless they manage to trap a few inside their formation. Even when they trap some, they usually can't kill them without letting the trapped cavalry escape.

Overall, the competency of Cavalry AI vs foot troops & Infantry AI vs cavalry is unacceptable, it's a very big downgrade compared to the patch 1.1. The devs most certainly should not push this patch to live until these issues are fixed.
 
Cavalry using spears is decent now against infantry. Not sure if better than it was in 1.9, but it looks ok.

Cavalry using short melee weapons is still aweful.

You can test this giving a companion on horse a spear against 20 looters, and then replacing the spear for a sword. Companion using a sword is going to fail a lot, while using spears is going to do it decently.

On the other hand, spear infantry is still too defensive against cavalry.
 
Back
Top Bottom