Should Infantry have throwables?

[Cornelis]

I have noticed that some of the infantry in the game have throwable weapons and I think that we have plenty of options for ranged warfare like skirmishers or archers or horse archers and infantry should do what they are named to do.

Maybe they can rename some troops but personally I don't finish a lot of the troops of because it's a disadvantage getting a tier 5 Oathsworn when he is gonna start throwing Javelins mid charge and slows down I would have gotten a Wildling if I wanted that I understand that you can get them to stop throwing but that's just another thing to do in a battle and I hate doing it.

 

[Marajah]

Man, it's like 2 buttons to stop infantry from throwing stuff

 

[Cornelis]

Man, it's like 2 buttons to stop infantry from throwing stuff

I know that but why should infantry turn into a skirmisher at tier 5 when it's on a completely line of the troop tree

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Troops need to stick to their role, it is ok to have some unique infantry that have throwing weapons it just shouldn't be as many as it is now. The loadouts on the troops is retarded where "swordsmen" have spears, pretty much it just makes units clones if they all have swords, spears, and throwing weapons. I went through the entire "spnpccharacters" troop file and what I saw there was pretty bad and made me realize haw bad the troop design really is in this game.

 

[Apocal]

Infantry without throwables get farmed really hard in this game. A player can legitimately solo 100+ of them with a sumpter horse and a long spear.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Sounds more like a composition problem not an infantry problem. It is kind of like when the Scots showed up to battle the English with pikes and got shredded by longbows.

 

[Apocal]

Sounds more like a composition problem not an infantry problem.

It is absolutely an infantry problem. As far as troop types go, they are probably the weakest already due to loss rates. Making most of them literally helpless against anything outside of melee range is only going make the tactical game more clownshoes than it already is.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Again that is a composition problem, if the Ai doesn't have skirmishers, archers, and their own cavalry to counter the "great sumpter long spear dilemma" then that is the problem. Some historical references of battles that composition won the day are Hastings 1066 and Battle of Carrhae where infantry got outclassed by combined arms and high mobility forces. Giving EVERYBODY a throwing weapon or a spear is just putting a band aid on a more deeper issue and that is Ai army composition and the Ai's ability to control troops on the battle map in a manner where different troop types support each other. That said throwing weapons are a big problem for some units, I can't tell you how many times I have seen a Voulgier or Pike armed troop take a lance to the face because they were dicking around with throwing weapons. Thankfully throwing axes were taken away from pikemen, but if they were using their polearms more they would have a better chance of stopping cavalry.

Ai usage of spears and spear balance is another topic, but is part of the bigger problem. Historically long spear infantry formations were deadly and near impossible to defeat in a frontal attack with shorter weapons, if TW could get the spear act together and make it were there is a spear formation that multiple ranks could defend/attack like a phalanx it would solve some issues and bring combat more in line with how things went down.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Without throwing weapons Infantry is literal CHUMP BLOCKERS, only there to distract, trade or die in place of other troops.
Having some throwables makes them have to be dealt with much more cautiously by the player and HA units as even 1 lucky shot can take down player or expensive HA units. YES it can still be dealt with easily, but it's the difference between having to actively out flank/range them and run interference and just sitting there shooting arrows till you win. I greatly favor enhancing units that struggle over nerfing units that perform well.

. Giving EVERYBODY a throwing weapon or a spear is just putting a band aid on a more deeper issue and that is Ai army composition and the Ai's ability to control troops on the battle map in a manner where different troop types support each other.

Welcome to bandaid-lord, they derped up the combat and combat AI and everything they've done and all that they will do is pile more and more band aids on it!
Come next march it will be a baindaid mummy! They're not going to re-do combat or make a new AI.

One thing that might be do-able is have a option for SP player to arm throwables OR some other auxiliary weapons on his infantry, since I agree throwing weapons at the wrong time can cause losses and it's annoying to toggle fire off and on for multiple formations. An extra f key just for infantry fire (on the old system, never gonna use the new radial one) could help... but whatever.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Weren't throwing weapons popular as a preamble to melee combat during the period Bannerlord is trying to emulate? At least the likes of Battania and the Aserai should have ready access to versatile infantry. Sturgia too to an extent if you want a bit of Norse inspiration. The Empire can keep their pila, though it would be cool if they had plumbata instead. No real idea about the Khuzaits, but I guess the throwing spear the Darkhan have is good enough.

Vlandia should probably be the only faction to straight up lack in throwables, so as to better fit their supposed military inspiration.

In terms of balance and the general design of troops, I mean there is definitely some weird ****. Vlandian Swordsmen and the Oathsworn/Wildling are big offenders. Still not really seeing an issue with having several types of throwing weapon infantry around. High tier skirmishers are not a thing anyway, seeing as skirmishers are usually lower tier, cheaper troops to begin with.

Also I really don't see the difficulty in just hitting f4. Maybe give players the option to set the default mode of fire for troops before battle or something, I dunno.

 

[Apocal]

Again that is a composition problem, if the Ai doesn't have skirmishers, archers, and their own cavalry to counter the "great sumpter long spear dilemma" then that is the problem.

OK, let me try to explain my thinking:
The enemy party comes to me with a mixed force: pure infantry, dedicated skirmishers, cavalry, archers. I've decided to forgo infantry and skirmishers instead maxing out my archers and cavalry. With my maxed-out cavalry, their cavalry can't do anything. With my maxed-out archers, I win the ranged duel against the skirmishers and enemy archers. At no point are the enemy infantry relevant because they can't keep pace with a cavalry fight, nor can they contribute anything to the ranged duel. And then they get finished off because they have no way to defend themselves against ranged attackers (my archers) or me, the player, on a horse with a 180+ length polearm.

In the current situation where they have throwing weapons, they are still mostly irrelevant but at least the infantry take down a handful of cavalry and a few stray archers in the process of being annihilated.

Thankfully throwing axes were taken away from pikemen, but if they were using their polearms more they would have a better chance of stopping cavalry.

Have you actually tested this? Pikemen are renowned for being useless in BL, especially when they use their pikes.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Have you actually tested this? Pikemen are renowned for being useless in BL, especially when they use their pikes.

And I don't think pikemen ever had throwing axes to begin with. Only Voulgiers, the chaddier brother of the pikemen had them. If anything, giving pikemen throwing axes might make them as useful as a t2 skirmisher. Better than pikemen.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

OK, let me try to explain my thinking:
The enemy party comes to me with a mixed force: pure infantry, dedicated skirmishers, cavalry, archers. I've decided to forgo infantry and skirmishers instead maxing out my archers and cavalry. With my maxed-out cavalry, their cavalry can't do anything. With my maxed-out archers, I win the ranged duel against the skirmishers and enemy archers. At no point are the enemy infantry relevant because they can't keep pace with a cavalry fight, nor can they contribute anything to the ranged duel. And then they get finished off because they have no way to defend themselves against ranged attackers (my archers) or me, the player, on a horse with a 180+ length polearm.

In the current situation where they have throwing weapons, they are still mostly irrelevant but at least the infantry take down a handful of cavalry and a few stray archers in the process of being annihilated.



Have you actually tested this? Pikemen are renowned for being useless in BL, especially when they use their pikes.

I get where your coming from and range is op currently, once the armor rebalance is rolled out (I think 1.5.6 or 1.5.7) it will probably change that dynamic somewhat. Currently with the lack of armor balance, spear balance/ai usage, and op weapons like the glaive it creates the perfect storm where infantry don't really matter. If you played Viking Conquest you would get rolled with that kind of build you listed as armor allowed the infantry to weather the range attacks. TW has recognized this and already started working on rebalancing range and armor is up next so we will see how it goes.

As for throwing weapons I'm not totally against them, I just think they should be used sparely to make a unit unique for the culture like the Imperial legionaries having pila.

 

[Apocal]

If you played Viking Conquest you would get rolled with that kind of build you listed as armor allowed the infantry to weather the range attacks.

Yeah, I've played VC. It was clear the devs there were deliberately privileging shieldwall fighting above every other form of fighting. That's why cav (except maybe the Frankish mercs?) were pretty squishy.

 

[Earth Dragon]

The game designers seem to feel that all slots need to be filled, more so when the game was first released.

The reality is that many soldiers were armed with three weapons plus a shield. But what do you need a dagger or short sword for in addition to your mace in this game? Weapons always clear, never break, and always stay in you hand.

So while it’s ridiculous to think that a soldier would go into battle with no sidearm/secondary weapon, in a world where you can’t lose your weapon in the middle of combat, you may feel your sword or axe is all you need.

So I didn’t answer the poll as I feel the answer should be: Some.

But as throwing spears (Like Pila) become more of a thing, THOSE are what the bulk of infantry should be armed with, with a hatchet style weapon also existing that fills the same role.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

It would be cool if weapons could break from attrition or be disarmed with certain perks on chamber blocks. Then side arms would have a real purpose and be just a slot filler. As for throwing weapons if they do it they should do it right though.

Heavy throwing spears - reserved for heavy infantry like Oathsworn type units with maybe just 1 or 2 in inventory like the pila

Throwing Axes - This should be something that could make the average Sturgian troops unique to make them kind of like the Franks and their francisca because they really lack in the range department. Throwing axes for all cultures is kind of silly as most cultures favored javelins or throwing spears. This is one of the things that could make a culture unique.

Aserai Skirmishers - They could be light skirmishers as a theme and lack armor comparably speaking to other infantry types armed with speed and flexibility but if get bogged in melee will get cut up.

Armor - A rebalance of armor will go a long way in resolving the current broken infantry element, with better armor infantry will be able to tank range better.

Shields - Shields is another area that needs to be looked at, throwing weapons should be more devastating to shields then they currently are. The purpose of the pila was to make the enemy shield usesless. Currently shields have too much hp and if there is an armor rebalance there needs to be a shield rebalance to bring them in line with range damage and so throwing weapons play their role in destroying them.

 

[geala]

In my opinion it's not a good idea to let throwing weapons destroy shields easily. I'm absolutely against lowering shield hp (I tried it and it is terrible for the AI and player alike). An armor buff (especially good for the armored shieldless twohanded and horse archer players) should not be combined with a shield nerf. Pila were not designed to make shields useless but to hit persons behind a shield, but that's not the point to discuss here. A pilum stuck in a shield would make the shield very unwieldy but it would not at all pulverise it, like in Bannerlord. A shield with dozens of arrows or javelins in it would still offer protection against ranged.

It would be terrible to design the game for a tactic to destroy shields by throwing weapons (or even arrows, as some mods offer it) and then kill the infantry with ranged. If it would not be possible to give a melee disadvantage for shields in which javelins and spears are stuck, they should let it at the current state.

 

[Mabons]

Should infantry have throwables? Been a subject of some debate on multiplayer. I sit on the side that says no, they shouldn't have to use that to prop the class up to playability. But so far that is what we have. And by infantry, I want to make clear, a proper skirmisher class is not really infantry and is more a gap stop between archery and infantry. Infantry is heavy, shock or light infantry.

For singleplayer, I also understand the frustration of asking your guys to charge and the one half that spawned with javelins decides to stop and throw their stuff first. That is why you should be able to select what weapons you want your men to use. For example, how much nicer would it be if you could tailor your Oathsworn to use Axes to rip the shields of the Sturgians to leave them vulnerable for your skirmishers and archers? Like an actual tactical choice. Or I want my Empire Legionaries to fight like real Legionaries did and have a pila to throw before combat.

 

[Medivhtratos]

It would be terrible to design the game for a tactic to destroy shields by throwing weapons (or even arrows, as some mods offer it) and then kill the infantry with ranged. If it would not be possible to give a melee disadvantage for shields in which javelins and spears are stuck, they should let it at the current state.

The Player, actually can Penetrate Shields/and make more damage against it with Thrown weapons. But sure they shouldn´t destroy a Large Round Shield with 2 Hits.

Shields - Shields is another area that needs to be looked at, throwing weapons should be more devastating to shields then they currently are. The purpose of the pila was to make the enemy shield usesless. Currently shields have too much hp and if there is an armor rebalance there needs to be a shield rebalance to bring them in line with range damage and so throwing weapons play their role in destroying them.

What about the metall Shields? I haven´t found anything about that the material Type affect dmg reduction or even stops a penetration.
Btw: The Bound Crossbow of the Vlanadian Sharpshooter is able to penetrate Shields, where Shields in counter become useless.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Should infantry have throwables? Been a subject of some debate on multiplayer. I sit on the side that says no, they shouldn't have to use that to prop the class up to playability. But so far that is what we have. And by infantry, I want to make clear, a proper skirmisher class is not really infantry and is more a gap stop between archery and infantry. Infantry is heavy, shock or light infantry.

For singleplayer, I also understand the frustration of asking your guys to charge and the one half that spawned with javelins decides to stop and throw their stuff first. That is why you should be able to select what weapons you want your men to use. For example, how much nicer would it be if you could tailor your Oathsworn to use Axes to rip the shields of the Sturgians to leave them vulnerable for your skirmishers and archers? Like an actual tactical choice. Or I want my Empire Legionaries to fight like real Legionaries did and have a pila to throw before combat.

+1 THIS
We have commented to the exhaustion... the player MUST have control over the weapon used by the bot by means of a command.

#Letmechoosetheweaponformybot