Scottish Independence

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To be honest, the thing that I fear most with China is increasingly serious internal dissent leading progressively to violence not unlike that which we see in Syria. It is of course quite difficult for anyone, even those living in China to take an accurate account of the situation. However, I think a couple of points are fairly uncontroversial: 1. the great majority of Chinese citizens at present do not enjoy as much freedom as do citizens throughout most of Western Europe, Japan, Hong Kong, Australia, North America, much of South America, parts of Africa, and India; 2. There are growing disparities in a affluence, particularly between rural and urban areas and between minority ethnicities. Of course, the same can be said about the U.S., but the degree if disparity is I believe more dramatic in the case of China were large portions of the population continue to live in very underdeveloped rural areas; 3. the rule of law is certainly not as transparent and fair as in most of Western Europe or the other parts of the world I just mentioned, and probably quite a bit less so; 4. The state contnues to exert much more influence into individual lives than in most of the rest of the developed world, exemplified in policies such as the one-child policy, but a range of others as well; 5. All of these disparities between the degree of social and political development in China compared to most of the 'free world' contrast sharply with: (a) the general increase in consumerism and lifestyle expectations, if not standards of living in general; (b) the inevitable increase in exposure to the rest of the world among the population of China, despite efforts such as the Great FireWall to block out external influences.

In sum, China is a reforming police state, whose people deserve the the same opportunities for prosperity, freedom and liberty that is enjoyed in the most advanced societies in the world (e.g., Sweden, Switzerland, France, Germany, the U.K., U.S., etc.). The question is really just a matter of how quickly the ruling powers in China can tolerate reforms that keep one step ahead of dissent.

It is my hope that those ruling powers understand that going backwards or slowing the pace of their relinquishment of autocracy are not viable options, and thus the pace of reform in China will continue if not hasten, and thus, China will be an increasingly ethical law-abiding and lucrative trading partner to everyone, helping to boost prosperity and well-being globally.

ADDIT: nonetheless, I believe that increasing unity and solidarity among the rest of the world is in all of our best interests. One does not have to portray China as a looming Commie Menace to appreciate that.
 
throughout most of Western Europe
not as transparent and fair as in most of Western Europe
Because Eastern Europe is ravaged by the many evils of communism. The 80s called, they want you back.

I believe that increasing unity and solidarity among the rest of the world is in all of our best interests.
No, **** off, 80s guy. Send us an emissary from the 10s and we'll reconsider.
 
MadVader said:
throughout most of Western Europe
not as transparent and fair as in most of Western Europe
Because Eastern Europe is ravaged by the many evils of communism. The 80s called, they want you back.

See! You are in favor of coalesecence and unity too! You just didn't realize it  :wink:

So okay, not just WESTERN Europe, NAm, Aust, Singapore, Japan, parts of Africa, India, most of South America . . . but ALL of Europe, NAm, Aust, Singapore, etc., etc.
 
As I'm from Northern Ireland i have heard the independence debate countless times and to be honest Independence causes problems because you have Die-hards on both sides which inevitably can lead to some sort of conflict and to be honest Scotland does not gain much from Independence and neither does it lose much from not being independent. But the thing is England does not really care about Scotland (London has double the population of Scotland) and if Scotland where to become independent they would become a major trading partner to the UK and that would mean the money lost from taxes would be covered. (Also England would no longer have to invest money into keeping services like the NHS in Scotland.)
 
On the one hand you have rising costs due to all the governmental and national services having to be provided for by the new country itself rather than the central government. (Temporary) Loss of faith in the country, when it comes to corporations due to possible instabilities. Worldwide importance and say in what happens lowers for both parties.

On the other hand you have a more efficient allocation of the wealth seeing as the government is a lot closer to the people and their desires. Instead of being elected by a much larger country, it is rather the people from a smaller country voting, and their votes don't get drowned out, they therefor have a much larger say as to what they want doing and what political ideologies have the upperhand in the government.
 
Anthropoid said:
So here is my questions to the independence advocates: what precedent are you setting? What are the possible long-term international consequences of that precedent?

Assuming any arguments about how your separating from the UK is better for YOU, what about the rest of us? Meaning, what about the immediate and long-term impacts of your secession from the UK?

No doubt the founding fathers of the United States had to ask themselves such questions too, when they considered the idea of leaving the rule of Westminster, just like we are doing now - and the conclusion they came to was that it would not just be beneficial to them or their nation in particular, but would set a good example globally, and act as an encouragement to other peoples around the world who believe in the manifest righteousness of national independence and self-rule. 

I pretty much agree with what they said then on the subject, particularly with John Adams.

I want to see the current super-states and super-powers, the self-appointed "world's policemen", reined in,  or at least hugely disempowered.  I am not impressed by their efforts towards securing world peace and democracy so far.  As Cromwell said in his address to the Rump Parliament: "You have sat here too long for any good you have been doing... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!" 

Anthropoid said:
The first most obvious form of harm is to remove resources from the UK, including personnel, military, and economic. As a major ally among the Free World Powers, harm done to the UK could reduce the capacity of allied organizations such as NATO. In sum, a weakened UK may be rather bad for the rest of the Free World and rather good for the potential opponents of the Free World, whether that be Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, or any other international power that might seek to undermine democracy and rule of law.

I see it the other way round.  Any weakening of the UK as a military force would automatically be beneficial to the world as a whole, since it is one of the world's most active and dangerous warmonger states.  There is not a single year since 1945 when the UK's military forces and secret services have not been engaged somewhere in the world, usually in multiple places at once, and nearly always to the lasting detriment of the country we were fighting in (and ostensibly for).  Ask Kenya about it.  For that matter, ask Iran.

There is a reason why Iran is currently ruled by a daft corrupt theocracy with designs on gaining nuclear weapons - it's because MI6 and the CIA collaborated in overthrowing their democratically elected leader, Mossadegh, in 1953 (because he promised to nationalise the oil industry).  We did this simply so that we could steal the oil, and to facilitate the easier theft of it we installed a brutal and repressive dictatorship in place of the government that the people of Iran had elected.  Surprisingly enough, they have never trusted us since, and this is only one example of how our obsessive meddling and attempts to enforce our own ideas of the rule of law on others have backfired, and imprerilled the safety of our own countries' citizens.

Anthropoid said:
So let us suppose that an upcoming referendum results in independence for Scotland, what then? Such an outcome would seem to embolden other secessionist movements in the West, including Quebec and Catalonia. Let us speculate that, over a five year period, all three of these simmering seccessionist scenarios do in fact sequentially secede. This remarkable chain of events could of course provoke additional seccionist movements in other Western nations. For example, what exactly has the rest of the U.S. ever really done for California? If there is a single provinicial entity on the globe that would seem to (at least on paper in a short-term sense) gain from independence California would seem to be a prime candidate. Texas and New York might well follow-suit. Where would it end? With all of us speaking Mandarin?

I have to wonder, were you so concerned about the long term geopolitical effects on global stability when the US State Department was encouraging every breakaway state and outlying region it could find to secede from the Soviet Union? 

Scotland was already a country, an independent and sovereign state, with it's own royal family, legal system, and educational system (the latter two of which it still retains), long before it entered into any political Union with another state.  It is fundamentally different from the other states and regions you mention.  Because it has always been a country, and a nation.  No nation benefits from being ruled by another.
 
Sir Hitson Winsler is right, even if independence is achieved the United Kingdom will still exist (because no one is currently looking to repeal the Union of the Crowns, on which the Kingdom depends), and there will be no need to alter the Union flag unless somebody goes in a big huff over it. 

I quite like the Union flag myself, and reckon that even if the Union of the Crowns is repealed at some point in the future they should still keep it as it is anyway. 
 
Mage246 said:
A better question would be what replaces the term "Great Britain".

Great Britain used to include Brittany, in France, and we didn't bother changing the name when we lost that bit of territory.  So technically the name Great Britain (meaning simply, Big Britain) could stay as well.

Seriously, most independence supporters just don't want to be ruled from Westminster anymore - and frankly, does anyone, even in England?  That's all this is about to most of them.

For me, it's different.  I want to see the UK disbanded as a state.  But I am not a typical independence supporter.
 
Okay, you make good points overall, and you seem to be rather levelheaded about the whole matter. Moreover, you seem to have weighed the potential broader impacts (something I wouldn't have guessed a secessionist would have done) and have concluded that they are a benefit not a cost.

I won't say you have convinced me that secession is the way to go, but, then again I'm not a member of a society with a secessionist movement nor am I motivated by such a sentiment, so I respect your rational decisions in that regard.

If I were Scottish I think I'd probably vote against, but then if the referendum passes it is certainly a legitimate reflection of the will of the people and I suppose it should go through.
 
Thanks Anthropoid, that was nice of you to say.  I never really meant to re-start this thread, I just got drunk a couple of nights ago and decided to post my videos up, kind of as a wind-up.  :lol: 

Once I get started though I have to go all in, and this is one subject (maybe the only subject) I really believe in.

Thanks to Úlfheðinn and Uhtred Dunkerch as well, for understanding democracy.
 
Flanged said:
Thanks Anthropoid, that was nice of you to say.  I never really meant to re-start this thread, I just got drunk a couple of nights ago and decided to post my videos up, kind of as a wind-up.  :lol: 

Once I get started though I have to go all in, and this is one subject (maybe the only subject) I really believe in.

Thanks to Úlfheðinn and Uhtred Dunkerch as well, for understanding democracy.

*ahem*  *begins a musical number*

"Well a Scotsman clad in kilt left a bar one evening fair, and one could tell by how he walked he'd drunk more than his share! He logged on to taleworlds  posted what he dared, he revived a thread about Scottish borders on this earth! ring didli iodi'ae ah ring li didli I'oh! he revived a  thread about Scottish borders on this earth!"
 
There is also a business perspective to consider. Politicians in smaller countries are cheaper to bribe. You can only prevent this by paying them ludicrous salaries and giving them landed titles.
 
At the same time as EU is moving towards more control and more Federal-style future, Scotland and Catalonia wants to become independent. Funny paradox.
 
Flanged said:
Thanks to Úlfheðinn and Uhtred Dunkerch as well, for understanding democracy.

I respect Scotland as a nation and will offer my support for your independence (so long as the majority of your people desire it) any day. I find myself especially impressed by your tradition of fighting with less clothing than your opponent(s), your strong liquor and your love of swearing.

Regards,
Ulf, IKEA Wizard, Defender of the Western World and Freedom
 
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