Saw this on Reddit, a response from Taleworlds?

[ArnulfFloyd]

Warband is actually a standalone expansion rather new game but this thing says all, differences to M&B are minor, but game takes many patches until get actual form, we observing in LPs these thing, otherwise I not have installed original M&B because I like Warband so much. In my case game change my life since 27 april and I not will playing or watch LPs with AOE and Total War games anymore because feel unfinished and uninteresting

 

[Salmonsy]

Yeah, Bannerlord is going to be significantly more awesome! They’ve made major changes from early development to dramatically improve every aspect of the the game.  Do those with such infantile demands and simplistic expectations think Taleworlds should pay them any mind whatsoever? Yes, of course and they believe they deserving of the game immediately simply for owning nothing but a wish.  They have a juvenile attitude. They want a # product apparently and they want it now! “I want it, I should have it now.”  The game is not finished.  Do you want an unfinished game? Do you want a mediocre one?  They are adding and improving so much to make Bannerlord a great game on release. True fans should be grateful that this title will be such a labor of love, because the result will be so much greater.

Warband was a half-ass release honestly, and it took years from the original and years of iteration after it was handed to public to arrive at what it is now. All past sales have enabled TW to grow their team and spend more time / resources developing Bannerlord to exceed expectations.  TW is taking the core game to the level of quality and detail it deserves. The devs don’t owe anyone an explanation, noone has paid for said game. Give them time, they will deliver.

Don't know if sarcasm or not.

What I mean is that there is so much carryover from m&b to warband that it's more like a large update than a new game. Significant chunks of code were carried over from 2008 to 2010, almost all of the textures and models from m&b are still in the game in some form, and even the names of settlements are the same. I don't fault them for basically releasing the same game twice, especially given how long development was, but it's definitely something to take into account when looking at the development cycle of bannerlord. Warband wasn't in development for 2 years because most of it had already been made by 2008. Even the original mnb is like three complete genres of game overlaid atop one another (strategy, rpg, third person action combat), so it's not surprising that it's taken so long.

I know, but even if you argue that way it's more appropiate to say that Mount&Blade was in development from 2004 to 2010 because development for M&B started 2004 and Warband was released in 2010. Bannerlord's development started around 2011 and is still ongoing 2018 with no end in sight. And when (or if) Bannerlord releases you don't know how many years of patching they'll need to fully flesh out the game.

 

[ArnulfFloyd]

Taeworlds patching games from time to time, for me this thing is good, for example I buying Warband in 2010 but not will be HD as 1.172 and 1.173 as in 2018

 

[Kniggit]

TL;DR: From a development perspective, I can sort of empathize with Taleworlds, but some timeframe or a list of remaining tasks to be completed would be nice.

It would really be neat to see Taleworlds use something like Trello, that could be made open to the public so they can actually see progress. I've used that many times for a few projects and its especially nice when working with multiple people so you can see what needs to be done, what stage/priority it is at, who it is assigned to, etc. Not many companies/business make that sort of stuff public, but I saw 1 or 2 "Early Access" projects that had a public Trello link on their site that people could visit to see what they were working on, and what features to get excited about. Then again, those were smaller projects with a much smaller fanbase, and only 1 or 2 dudes working on it.

Here's a link to an old Trello board that Spine used (an animation software that I use for some 2d games) that you could see what was being worked on: https://trello.com/b/frGlgsF7/spine-editor

Not sure what I would do in their shoes to be honest. I can certainly see them not wanting to give another release date if they aren't sure if they can meet that date. Hell I'm working on something for an app I'm making in my free time that I thought would have taken me 4 hours tops, after a few days of re-hashing through it, it certainly has taken me longer than I thought. If I had a deadline for that, I would have had no choice but to push back the deadline or else the app simply would not function properly.

Do what you gotta do Taleworlds, I guess I really just want a real release date so I can apply for time off ahead of time, or else I'll be calling in sick for a few days once it's released 

 

[Salmonsy]

TL;DR: From a development perspective, I can sort of empathize with Taleworlds, but some timeframe or a list of remaining tasks to be completed would be nice.

It would really be neat to see Taleworlds use something like Trello, that could be made open to the public so they can actually see progress. I've used that many times for a few projects and its especially nice when working with multiple people so you can see what needs to be done, what stage/priority it is at, who it is assigned to, etc. Not many companies/business make that sort of stuff public, but I saw 1 or 2 "Early Access" projects that had a public Trello link on their site that people could visit to see what they were working on, and what features to get excited about. Then again, those were smaller projects with a much smaller fanbase, and only 1 or 2 dudes working on it.

Here's a link to an old Trello board that Spine used (an animation software that I use for some 2d games) that you could see what was being worked on: https://trello.com/b/frGlgsF7/spine-editor

Not sure what I would do in their shoes to be honest. I can certainly see them not wanting to give another release date if they aren't sure if they can meet that date. Hell I'm working on something for an app I'm making in my free time that I thought would have taken me 4 hours tops, after a few days of re-hashing through it, it certainly has taken me longer than I thought. If I had a deadline for that, I would have had no choice but to push back the deadline or else the app simply would not function properly.

Do what you gotta do Taleworlds, I guess I really just want a real release date so I can apply for time off ahead of time, or else I'll be calling in sick for a few days once it's released 

You make the assumption that they're developing the game in a way that makes it a linear, continuous process. As in, such and such amount of hours of work will get us closer to finishing the game. I'm arguing that since they're co-developing the engine of the game at the same time this doesn't need to be the case because changing the engine can make a lot of work null and void, forcing you to spend a considerable amount of time redoing the stuff that was already finished prior. I'm pretty sure their refusal to give a release date isn't about not wanting to disappoint people but rather because they want to still have the option to further tweak the engine if they feel it would be the right thing to do. They're not willing to burn that bridge which is concerning because it might ultimately lead to the demise of the game and the studio, if we're talking worst case here.

Which is why I found the statement regarding how it's not that unusual for a game like Bannerlord taking so long pretty dishonest. If I recall correctly, they've more or less admitted that the engine or rather the development thereof has been the biggest bottleneck so far.

 

[Kniggit]

I didn't think that it was a linear thing at all. The reality of Project Management is that no matter what timeline or deadline you set, there are many factors that could delay that, such as scope creep. I think my wording on "It would be cool to get a timeframe" wasn't thought out, so I apologize. I was thinking timeline in project management terms.

 

[jamoecw]

I don't know hell about Duke Nukem

well the developer made one of the best graphical engines for the time and dominated the market for the FPS genre for that cycle. at the time the cycle was about 6 months, though games took 1-2 years to make. this meant that they made huge amounts of money and didn't need to get publisher funding for Duke Nuke'em Forever. the lead dev that made the original games decided to make the best game ever. he hired a team and set his sights high. as he was making it he decided to take his time and completely blow the competition out of the water. as he made the game  certain blockbusters came out, forcing him to redo his engine and gameflow to incorporate new developments. he would work a few months and then redo the assets and work to bring them up to the new standard, but every few years he would redo the engine and that would nearly scrap everything. eventually he ran out of money, so he got loans. when he couldn't get anymore loans he cut deals with publishers. eventually he ran over the deadlines and the publishers took him to court. this delayed the game further. the game was in development for 15 years total (including 1 year of non-development due to publisher issues). in the end people were very upset with the quality of the game, as it felt rushed and cobbled together, despite the longest development of a game at the time of release.

 

[KhergitLancer80]

Duke nukem's developement was interrupted couple of times and developers changed every time. The game was literally released to give the long time waiting fans a thing. It had no similiarities with the Bannerlords development except the long waiting time.

 

[Der Kopfsammler]

Well, at least they admited that it was a mistake to announce it before it was even half ready. And well, I'm skeptical about this being just more fuel for the hype train... I just wonder how big they will make that game.

 

[stevehoos]

We will all have plenty of nursing home activities (BL), no worries.

 

[Rungsted93]

I Kinda wish they would have just released Bannerlord in 2015-2016 even if it meant the same old engine with much not new but improved graphics and some more features etc. They could then have released what they're aiming for now as M&B 3 or a huge 30$ expansion.

That being said I do feel like they're back on track somehow and finally have clear goals and management. Just kinda wish they would give us the full explanation to what actually happened back then in 2015-2016, if anything it would only help us to relate more 

 

[VVyrd]

I Kinda wish they would have just released Bannerlord in 2015-2016 even if it meant the same old engine with much not new but improved graphics and some more features etc. They could then have released what they're aiming for now as M&B 3 or a huge 30$ expansion.

That being said I do feel like they're back on track somehow and finally have clear goals and management. Just kinda wish they would give us the full explanation to what actually happened back then in 2015-2016, if anything it would only help us to relate more 

Sadly, it does not work like that.

Building a new engine from scratch takes immense time and effort. To make the engine as moddable and friendly as possible is almost doubling that effort in many aspects.

Why do you think Bethesda's been using the same engine for their famously moddable RPGs ever since Morrowind?

 

[Rungsted93]

I Kinda wish they would have just released Bannerlord in 2015-2016 even if it meant the same old engine with much not new but improved graphics and some more features etc. They could then have released what they're aiming for now as M&B 3 or a huge 30$ expansion.

That being said I do feel like they're back on track somehow and finally have clear goals and management. Just kinda wish they would give us the full explanation to what actually happened back then in 2015-2016, if anything it would only help us to relate more 

Sadly, it does not work like that.

Building a new engine from scratch takes immense time and effort. To make the engine as moddable and friendly as possible is almost doubling that effort in many aspects.

Why do you think Bethesda's been using the same engine for their famously moddable RPGs ever since Morrowind?

They said themselves that they did use a modified version of warbands engine earlier in development, my point was that they should have made Bannerlord with that even if it meant it wouldn't be as good as the one we're getting now. Then they could have moved on to create a new engine afterwards so the game we're getting now would basically be Mount & Blade 3. I know it's a highly unrealistic scenario of course!

 

[kalarhan]

Then they could have moved on to create a new engine afterwards so the game we're getting now would basically be Mount & Blade 3. I know it's a highly unrealistic scenario of course!

sure, they could the same thingy as games like Fifa, Call of Duty, BF, ... (name any game that gets a release every year or two). It would meant that each year we would get a game that is mostly a clone of the last year, with small changes. And unless they made it big in $$$ to be able to keep two teams working, the chance for a new engine would be quite small.

I have being playing Fifa since about 98 (20 years). At that time we would even get two games on World Cup years lol. I dont think it is a bad model per si, but then again if you look at many Warband players that have ancient (potato) computers, how many would be OK paying $60 or more a year for the new game?

They decided to focus on one product at time and put all their resources into that. Hopefully they will make enough money to keep going on and work on MB3, expansions, patches, and all that.

I personally would like to see Warband updates by TW, with new world maps (similar to VC), tech improvements (better support for new generation of hardware like 64bits and multicore), improve support for modding, and all that. I wouldnt mind paying for that every year (say $30 bucks). But that did not happen. So all we can do is wait for Bannerlord and see what they will do in the future to keep the game alive for the next 5-10 years.

 

[Ragratt]

Then they could have moved on to create a new engine afterwards so the game we're getting now would basically be Mount & Blade 3. I know it's a highly unrealistic scenario of course!

I personally would like to see Warband updates by TW, with new world maps (similar to VC), tech improvements (better support for new generation of hardware like 64bits and multicore), improve support for modding, and all that. I wouldnt mind paying for that every year (say $30 bucks). But that did not happen. So all we can do is wait for Bannerlord and see what they will do in the future to keep the game alive for the next 5-10 years.

They already did this with warband.  It was basically a rerelease of M&B with some new tech and multiplayer for 2/3 the cost of most games.  Then they squeezed as much content as they could out of it with a handful of full conversion official mods. Warband already has great performance on old machines and top rate mod support.  You can download files for mods on the fly to play a HUGE range of high quality community made content in MP or SP.  There is no need for small incremental changes to warband.  It’d be an unnecessary distraction at this point.

Honestly would have preferred a M&B 2 earlier instead of a bunch of mod-like releases but people really love those titles and they brought in a lot of revenue for the company.  The work they are doing to radically overhaul the core game is necessary for the series to last another 10 years.  They are taking their time to make sure that happens and I expect it will be well worth the wait.

 

[FBohler]

BL develompment has nothing to do with the DNF case.

BL is been built upon an in-house engine, tailored for their needs, with basically the same team since the beginning, which's the complete opposite of DNF development timeline.

Lack of experience caught TaleWorlds, they barely have any seasoned professional, almost everyone joined the video game industry by being hired by TaleWorlds.

 

[Edimonde]

Gather round to hear this song
of a development gone on too long
Taleworlds I will sue
For my balls they are turning blue
My heart fills with hate
The longer i must wait
Their game they must release
For my complaining to finally cease