(SAME) Faction troops in Faction armies [WOULD MAKE SENSE]

[jramm]

A folk would not join you just like that today because you conquered their land yesterday! And they will say yes! We fight you now! We kill our own ppl, we are ... whatever.

Except of course, for the many times that happened throughout history. Except for those times that people did, people wouldn't.

Factions exist in real life too, not just in the Mount & Blade universe. Many factions will all too happily side with the victors.

 

[Brave_Lung]

Nationalism of the 19th Century basically went around stuffing a dozen similar ethnic groups into a sack, and called it a 'nation.'

That's whole wrong! What do you think the kings were fighting for? Nation? whatever you call it! Culture! For their land/culture/nation. It doesn't matter what therm you're using.

Germany was splitted in many little countries back then. Romania was splitted in 3 and one was 300years in the Austro-Hungarian empire!

I also don't agree with this extreme nationalism! But I think ppl were even more fanatic back then. Ppl were more xenophobe than nowdays.

For example what's Austria? They call everybody auslanders but they forget Austrian borders and nation was formed 100 years ago and all the other lands were for more in the empire!

I'm a romanian who lives in austria and according history I'm more let's say austrian than auslander.

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Bottom line I think it's to make ppl fight on your side against their folk just like that! It should take a lot of time.
Maybe the game should set a delay! A number of days before a lord can recruit troops from the land of a totally new faction to fight his side!
And that should be a lot of days!

If you are Vladian and take a Sturgian City, well don't expect over night their ppl will fight your side!!! Bring your own troops from Vladia if you want to make an army!

 

[High chief Kieran]

Germany was splitted in many little countries back then. Romania was splitted in 3 and one was 300years in the Austro-Hungarian empire!

For example what's Austria? They call everybody auslanders but they forget Austrian borders and nation was formed 100 years ago and all the other lands were for more in the empire!

Maybe the game should set a delay! A number of days before a lord can recruit troops from the land of a totally new faction to fight his side!
And that should be a lot of days!

Germany was not very united either, i mean it was called the holy roman empire for a long time but it was neither holy nor roman nor an empire.
it was a confederation of people who waged more war on each other than people outside the empire.
so much for fighting side by side because of culture.

A folk would not join you just like that today because you conquered their land yesterday! And they will say yes! We fight you now! We kill our own ppl, we are ... whatever.

it is not because you took their land, usually there are a lot of different reasons why people fight.
they might have had no feeling of a connection with their own land to begin with.
they might need the money
they might have more connection with their concueror than the original owner of the land

ingame this is also implemented by people not liking you, you did no quests for them therefor you cannot recruit that many of their troops, you need to gain their trust before you will be able to recruit a lot of men there. sure the game is not doing a great job at he moment but it is there, i am assuming this will be developed further later on when they work on villages disposition a little more.

 

[jramm]

What do you think the kings were fighting for? Nation? whatever you call it! Culture!

Half the time, the lords weren't even of the same culture as the locals. Like the Austrian Habsburgs ruling Spain.

Bottom line is, you don't know the first thing about history.

 

[Brave_Lung]

Half the time, the lords weren't even of the same culture as the locals. Like the Austrian Habsburgs ruling Spain.

Bottom line is, you don't know the first thing about history.

Oh and you know! Half the time! Really?? Where did you read that? ?

Still trying to explain something illogical guys. OK I get it, you wanna defend your precious game.

 

[Orbit-]

Wrong, plenty of Europeans fought with the Ottomans or are the Balkans suddenly non European?!? Moldovia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, Greeks, Bosnians... plenty of European vasalls who had significant impact on affairs in the Ottoman empire themselves.

Those vassals were not part of the Ottoman empire though. They were semi-independent. The direct vassals were the Greece, Albania, Egypt etc. So Ottoman army never recruited Greeks in Byzantine style. They assigned them Ottoman equipments and gave them Ottoman training. A Client state and a direct vassalship are different. Many states didnt bother to change the equipments or trainings of the recruits from the newly conquered lands but also some did.

This problem can be solved very easily in the game.
-Change the equipment of the new recruits -> Done, problem solved.
-Local militia should keep their own cultural equipments.

Or an in-depth cultural conversion could be implemented:

Give player and NPCs to choose the culture of the town they conquer. Upon conquering a town or a castle we should be given 3 options;
1- "Force your culture on the people" in result of this action we should be able to recruit our faction's troops after sometime like 2 weeks ingame or more, you pick.
We should also get relations hit with the notables of the opposite faction and maybe even decrease in population and production as it will create unrest among the citizens.
Also a high rebellion chance should be present.

2- "Make the population slowly adopt your culture" Similar yet slower version of the above, less hit with relations, more time until we recruit desired troops.

3- "Let the inhabitants keep their cultural traits" Nothing changes, and player/npc can continue to recruit the foreign troops if he/she wants to use them as auxiliary troops.


Or another option could be to take a similar approach to the matter by following total war's religion system.

-Building cultural buildings should change the culture slowly.
-Stationing the desired culture's troops should effect the culture of the town/castle after sometime. Especially if they outnumber the locals.

Its all about equipments really.

 

[mangalore]

Those vassals were not part of the Ottoman empire though. They were semi-independent. The direct vassals were the Greece, Albania, Egypt etc. So Ottoman army never recruited Greeks in Byzantine style. They assigned them Ottoman equipments and gave them Ottoman training. A Client state and a direct vassalship are different. Many states didnt bother to change the equipments or trainings of the recruits from the newly conquered lands but also some did.
...

You are speaking of a 500 year time frame here so I would cautious about those claims as you just merged several military reforms and recruitment systems the Ottomans had over centuries. Ottomans had auxillary troops like anyone else, they even had French artillery on some campaign when the French allied with them.

Without getting stuck down only on one example we find plenty of armies with vasalls bringing their distinct fighting equipment and styles along because in most cases the regions retained their lifestyles.

 

[Limbojack]

How often in the history do you think that happened??? Almost never! Vikings attacking their own ppl on the roman empire's side? Are you from this world???

You need to take a couple of chill pills, mate.

The ottoman empire conquered European land but they never had europeans in their armies fighting their side!!

The ottomans employed several Christians, such as the early janissaries and soldiers from their Christian and European vassals.

That being said, if a lord defects with his or her holdings intact, it would make sense for him/her to still field a majority of the same culture soldiers, no? Anyway, just consider them mercenaries if it's such an issue for you.

 

[Brave_Lung]

Those vassals were not part of the Ottoman empire though. They were semi-independent. The direct vassals were the Greece, Albania, Egypt etc. So Ottoman army never recruited Greeks in Byzantine style. They assigned them Ottoman equipments and gave them Ottoman training. A Client state and a direct vassalship are different. Many states didnt bother to change the equipments or trainings of the recruits from the newly conquered lands but also some did.

This problem can be solved very easily in the game.
-Change the equipment of the new recruits -> Done, problem solved.
-Local militia should keep their own cultural equipments.

Or an in-depth cultural conversion could be implemented:

Give player and NPCs to choose the culture of the town they conquer. Upon conquering a town or a castle we should be given 3 options;
1- "Force your culture on the people" in result of this action we should be able to recruit our faction's troops after sometime like 2 weeks ingame or more, you pick.
We should also get relations hit with the notables of the opposite faction and maybe even decrease in population and production as it will create unrest among the citizens.
Also a high rebellion chance should be present.

2- "Make the population slowly adopt your culture" Similar yet slower version of the above, less hit with relations, more time until we recruit desired troops.

3- "Let the inhabitants keep their cultural traits" Nothing changes, and player/npc can continue to recruit the foreign troops if he/she wants to use them as auxiliary troops.


Or another option could be to take a similar approach to the matter by following total war's religion system.

-Building cultural buildings should change the culture slowly.
-Stationing the desired culture's troops should effect the culture of the town/castle after sometime. Especially if they outnumber the locals.

Its all about equipments really.

Exactly. I do expect from this game to have a better mechanic and more senseful than Warband and not being just Warband enhanced.
Of course the way the world works is more complex and a game should evolve and not release just the same thing as 14 years ago with better graphics and animations.
This could be so much more complex, but because it's just a Warband overhaul, it will become boring fast I think.

 

[Orbit-]

You are speaking of a 500 year time frame here so I would cautious about those claims as you just merged several military reforms and recruitment systems the Ottomans had over centuries. Ottomans had auxillary troops like anyone else, they even had French artillery on some campaign when the French allied with them.

Without getting stuck down only on one example we find plenty of armies with vasalls bringing their distinct fighting equipment and styles along because in most cases the regions retained their lifestyles.

Ottomans recruited fresh troops immediately after their conquest of Greece. The key point here is religion. They converted them to Islam and then proceed to recruit them in Ottoman fashion. So it didnt take 500 years, for some other places yes you are correct but especially in their early conquests and after the conquest of Constantinople, they followed a rapid conversion and recruitment process because they needed man power. The french artillery you speak of are from the late era and in late era Ottomans didnt need that many man because they already had an Imperial army (Janissaries and Qapikulu). Ottomans after conquering Balkans had 2 different armies. Anatolian army under Anatolian bannermen (Sancak beyi) and Rumelian army under Rumelian bannermen. Although they had slight differences, the main core had the same style and training. Furthermore Ottomans had Timar system. With this system Ottomans could quickly recruit, equip and train troops in Ottoman fashion, especially the cavalry (Timarli Sipahi). Cohesion in an army is an important thing, and Ottomans were famous for it. They could conquer and recruit new armies very rapidly in a cohesive way. By the early-mid 1500s, Sipahi were numbered up to 50 thousand only in Rumelia. The Sipahi were all Turks, The Turks the Sultan placed them to Rumelia to outnumber the locals for easier conversion. And the converted locals were taken into Janissary units. Locals militia probably kept their distinctive look, I agree with that. I also suggested that in my other comment, so locals should keep their own style, but new recruits should slowly change their style.

About vassals bringing their distinctly equipped armies, that also confirms what I said "vassals are responsible for their armies equipments and training." So as a vassal in the game I should be able to have control over that issue. So it should be able to change how my troops look right? Thats what you said too. But If I'm the king of Vlandia and my vassals bring Sturgian troops from their newly conquered region, thats fine. But I should be able to change the equipments of recruits in my own army. I'm not talking about the local militia though.

 

[Brave_Lung]

Isn't it kind of embarrassing to showcase your ignorance like this?

Don't talk from the back of your head! This didn't happen every day! Of course this took 350 years and you can give a lot of examples! I can give too.
But the ottomans didn't come just like that, took the land and ppl join them to fight futher lands next to them! What the hell are you smoking dude?
What you are writing is really entertaining! ?

 

[High chief Kieran]

Exactly. I do expect from this game to have a better mechanic and more senseful than Warband and not being just Warband enhanced.
Of course the way the world works is more complex and a game should evolve and not release just the same thing as 14 years ago with better graphics and animations.
This could be so much more complex, but because it's just a Warband overhaul, it will become boring fast I think.

they are still working on the game, it is not finished yet, they are still planning to make cultural conversion in the game as far as i know.
and its been 12 years since the original not 14. could you please check your "facts" before posting, it is not just this post but all of the posts in this tread that you made

Don't talk from the back of your head!

What the hell are you smoking dude?
What you are writing is really entertaining! ?

again showing some respect to the people in the forum would be nice.

 

[DrDruGs]

Wow, I just walked into a history session.
Don't mind me, I'm just here to read the juicy insults.

 

[Brave_Lung]

Ottomans recruited fresh troops immediately after their conquest of Greece. The key point here is religion. They converted them to Islam and then proceed to recruit them in Ottoman fashion. So it didnt take 500 years, for some other places yes you are correct but especially in their early conquests and after the conquest of Constantinople, they followed a rapid conversion and recruitment process because they needed man power. The french artillery you speak of are from the late era and in late era Ottomans didnt need that many man because they already had an Imperial army (Janissaries and Qapikulu). Ottomans after conquering Balkans had 2 different armies. Anatolian army under Anatolian bannermen (Sancak beyi) and Rumelian army under Rumelian bannermen. Although they had slight differences, the main core had the same style and training. Furthermore Ottomans had Timar system. With this system Ottomans could quickly recruit, equip and train troops in Ottoman fashion, especially the cavalry (Timarli Sipahi). Cohesion in an army is an important thing, and Ottomans were famous for it. They could conquer and recruit new armies very rapidly in a cohesive way. By the early-mid 1500s, Sipahi were numbered up to 50 thousand only in Rumelia

Yes, but still not over night and not everywhere! In other lands didn't happen!
They tried to buy kings, etc. And sometimes it worked.
But just saying, the history is more complex and it's not ok to condense a 300years span in one argue.
I can give also examples when that never happened. Why? because ppl said f off to the turks despite their numbers.

Do you know by the way what Vlad Tepes (the one called Dracula) did??? To stop 100.000 men army marched by the Mahommed II himself, the one who took the Constantinopol in 145Xsomething, I forgot.
He attacked all their caravans, evacutated all the romanian lands and poisoned all the waters so the ottoman don't have food nor water.
Then he attacked ninja style the ottoman camps during the nights hitting for the Mahommed II's tent, but they confused it with another tent and they couldn't kill him!!!
So after a while they fleed! That's super crazy! Tepes would neve ever join them or his ppl, even conquered by the turks! They tried to convert them, etc! Never worked!
On top of that we had other kings who fought 1/10 battles against the turks and won! But they were too many! That was the problem.
Hungarians had super crazy kings too. And there was another one in Transilvania. Matei Corvin and Stefan the Greatest who was very little in fact, lol, but deadly in battles.

So don't tell me this is an usual thing that ppl just join other factions and fight their own

 

[Shronker]

I get the feeling OP doesn't want an explanation, he just wants to be mad at the game for not living up to his misinformed opinion on historical armies. I don't see why you all bother, but this is entertaining to read nonetheless.

fr he just wants to rant so i say let him. Plus i dont remember tw saying this game is "historically accurate"

 

[Orbit-]

Yes, but still not over night and not everywhere! In other lands didn't happen!
They tried to buy kings, etc. And sometimes it worked.
But just saying, the history is more complex and it's not ok to condense a 300years span in one argue.
I can give also examples when that never happened. Why? because ppl said f off to the turks despite their numbers.

Do you know by the way what Vlad Tepes (the one called Dracula) did??? To stop 100.000 men army marched by the Mahommed II himself, the one who took the Constantinopol in 145Xsomething, I forgot.
He attacked all their caravans, evacutated all the romanian lands and poisoned all the waters so the ottoman don't have food nor water.
Then he attacked ninja style the ottoman camps during the nights hitting for the Mahommed II's tent, but they confused it with another tent and they couldn't kill him!!!
So after a while they fleed! That's super crazy! Tepes would neve ever join them, nor his ppl even conquered! They tried to convert them, etc! Never worked!
On top of that we had other kings who fought 1/10 battles against the turks and won! But they were too many! That was the problem.

So don't tell me this is an usual thing that ppl just join other parties and fight their own!

I'm not really sure why you wrote all these as they are unrelated to what I'm saying. But OK.

 

[Brave_Lung]

I'm not really sure why you wrote all these as they are unrelated to what I'm saying. But OK.

It's 100% related to what you're saying, because it's the opposite argue against your argue. If you have time to read the last sentence which is the conclusion, maybe you will understand.

 

[panxo_dakilla]

Fun part is that it's possible OP met the army of a lord who had just joined the empire and still had his old troops. Also Romanian pride on Tepes is cool, but it's amusing how he brings it up when it has almost nothing to do with the topic in question.

 

[Ularen]

Woah.. can honestly say I’ve loved reading and participating in this forum because even if people disagree drastically on the amount of progress that has been/should have been made in the game during development, they are still respectful of each other. @Brave_Lung please don’t taint that atmosphere because you refuse to listen to many many people posting examples of why you might be misinformed. I recognize you do have examples where culturally, or religiously, armies did tend to stay relatively homogenous. But other members have provided you with countless examples as to where that was not the case (and even refuted some of the ones you made, like the ottomans). It’s fair to say you can want what you want, but it’s ignorant to still argue that what’s happening in the game is totally unrealistic. It isn’t. Perhaps they could add a mechanic or a mod where different cultural troops might be integrated more slowly into conquering armies. But me personally, I love seeing and using different cultures in a single army. I always have a unit of auxiliary Sturgian or Azeris recruits that are expendable, but if they level up enough, are welcomed into my battle lines as elite soldiers. It creates an added atmosphere to my army I would otherwise not have. So please understand that while you may not like that other armies don’t stick to their culture (which is perfectly valid) it seems that many people here do and are simply sharing examples as to why what’s occurring in the game isn’t as ridiculous as you originally claimed. There isn’t a need to try and ruffle feathers; you’re likely not gonna get your screaming match you seem to desire on this forum. Go try Call of Duty

 

[Brave_Lung]

I recognize you do have examples where culturally, or religiously, armies did tend to stay relatively homogenous.

Yes, and that's the majority of cases.

But other members have provided you with countless examples as to where that was not the case (and even refuted some of the ones you made, like the ottomans). It’s fair to say you can want what you want, but it’s ignorant to still argue that what’s happening in the game is totally unrealistic.

I think we are too far to even consider the word "realistic" having anything to do with the game.
I never said I want realism, but I gave some reasonable examples to explain one thing. But some ppl want to argue with some historical exceptions, saying that this was a every day thing back then.
You should all educate yourself. Your countries/nation whatever you call them would not even exist if your ancestors would not fight against the ottomans in the middle age.
If all would join like you say the opposite side, you would bow to Allah right now. (supposing you are from europe, because the turkish ppl know better than you, your own history)

It isn’t. Perhaps they could add a mechanic or a mod where different cultural troops might be integrated more slowly into conquering armies.

This is exactly what I stated. The game should have a little bit more complex mechanic when it comes to recruiting troops by other factions.

Go try Call of Duty

Why Call of Duty? Do you consider CoD realistic?? Is that your standard of realism? Jesus!!! At least I know in what terms we are having a debate.
So you are a CoD player? Never played that game, you know. But what has to do the shooters with RPG medieval games?
Your recommendation really strikes me, hahahaha.
Why didn't you recommend me... something else? BTW. No offense here. I would recommend you something. EXANIMA. Check that out. You will like it, I mean it. (no joke)

I never said the game is horrible. OK maybe I said I expected more, but I'm not the only one.
But the mechanics are quite too simple