(SAME) Faction troops in Faction armies [WOULD MAKE SENSE]

Brave_Lung

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How would it be to have a Viking army and attack the roman empire and notice ... that... their troops are.... made out oF VIKINGS?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You would capture the VIKINGS from the roman empire ... army!!! AND SELL THEM TO RANSOM BROKERS???

OR!!! Keep them as prisoners and they would... never want to join you back??? WHAT???

How is this logic at all?
 
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2 things

1. the most logical reason is that the army or part of their army is made up by lords who switched their allegiance, so a sturgian lord defecting over to the empire still has his sturgian troops.

2. they are not vikings and romans, they are kievan russ (sturgia) inspired and byzantine (empire) inspired.

since they are traitors i see no reason why not to sell them to a ransom broker
 

Brave_Lung

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1. I don't think so!!! Switching parties is not like in political parties these days!
How often in the history do you think that happened??? Almost never! Vikings attacking their own ppl on the roman empire's side? Are you from this world???
How about Empire having troups just made out of Aserai?? How's that logic? EVERY ARMY in this game has random troops!!! How is that logic?

2. I know they are not vikings and romans and how they are called in game. I was an example Duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh... jesus
 
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1. I don't think so!!! Switching parties is not like political parties!
How often in the history do you think that happened??? Vikings attacking their own ppl? Are you from this world???
How about Empire having troups just made out of Aserai?? How's that logic? EVERY ARMY in this game has random troops!!! How is that logic?

2. I know they are not vikings and romans and how they are called in game. I was an example Duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh... jesus
i have not seen every army use random troops, there are 2 reason for them using other troops.
1. defected lords taking their troops with them
2. empires who have taken over land of another faction can recruit their troops.

and vikings attacked other vikings all the time, the word viking means pirate. the culture group you are reffering to are norse, and even they waged a lot of war on each other for land/food.

last but certainly not least you could be a bit more respectfull to someone who is doing nothing more than just explaining the things you asked about.
 

vito397

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People in the medieval times aboslutely did often switch allegiances and troops from the same culture often fought on different sides of wars. This is becuase the concept of a nation is mainly an idea from 19th century romantic nationalism, In the period that the game tries to show, common people were loyal to their local lord or local region, rarely a wider concept. Also, you're thinking that "Aserai soldier" means a person that is loyal to some sort of "Aserai army", which is false. It is just a culturally Aserai person who is loyal to whichever lord controls his land
 

Brave_Lung

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Inappropriate behavior
last but certainly not least you could be a bit more respectfull to someone who is doing nothing more than just explaining the things you asked about.

Like I said, this happens too often in game and not just only lords are defecting or take other land and build troops from other lands!
But I can't prove it's all random, because I would have to be a beta tester to do that and nobody pays me for this.

And if the Roman Empire would conquer Viking land and settle there, would they train vikings there and use them to kill other vikings? I guess not! In fact they would no train troops there for a while, until the mix of cultures would take place. Like it happened with Romania.

It's not like, now suddenly the romans have just arabic troops in their armies! They became Romarabia.
 
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Nevore

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1. I don't think so!!! Switching parties is not like in political parties these days!
How often in the history do you think that happened??? Almost never! Vikings attacking their own ppl on the roman empire's side? Are you from this world???
How about Empire having troups just made out of Aserai?? How's that logic? EVERY ARMY in this game has random troops!!! How is that logic?

2. I know they are not vikings and romans and how they are called in game. I was an example Duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh... jesus
Vikings served the Byzantine Emperor. Google Varangian Guard
 

Nevore

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Like I said, this happens too often in game and not just only lords are defecting or take other land and build troops from other lands!
But I can't prove it's all random, because I would have to be a beta tester to do that and nobody pays me for this.

And if the Roman Empire would conquer Viking land and settle there, would they train vikings there and use them to kill other vikings? I guess not! In fact they would no train troops there for a while, until the mix of cultures would take place. Like it happened with Romania.

It's not like, now suddenly the romans have just arabic troops in their armies! They became Romarabia.
Romans used extensively auxilliary troops from the provinces they conquered. Most of the cavalry in the late Republic period onwards was provincial auxilliaries.


Read some books on history, you don't know what you're talking about and it makes you seem like the only history you know is HBO and Starz programs
 
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Brave_Lung

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People in the medieval times aboslutely did often switch allegiances and troops from the same culture often fought on different sides of wars. This is becuase the concept of a nation is mainly an idea from 19th century romantic nationalism, In the period that the game tries to show, common people were loyal to their local lord or local region, rarely a wider concept. Also, you're thinking that "Aserai soldier" means a person that is loyal to some sort of "Aserai army", which is false. It is just a culturally Aserai person who is loyal to whichever lord controls his land
Yes this happened, but on small scale and not between ppl of totally different culture! Read some history! Lands were not so united and yes they were fighting each other! But religion unified lands and so on against a bigger threat they were all making a pact to fight together.

This is how Europe pushed back the ottoman invasion! The crusades were meant to push back and take Constantinopole, after a 350years of muslim invasion.

The ottoman empire conquered European land but they never had europeans in their armies fighting their side!!
Europeans the same!!!

What the hell are you talking about!? You have no idea of history. You watched some movies and you think it was like in the movies? IMAO
 

Turbofjes

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I get the feeling OP doesn't want an explanation, he just wants to be mad at the game for not living up to his misinformed opinion on historical armies. I don't see why you all bother, but this is entertaining to read nonetheless.
 

mangalore

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Yes this happened, but on small scale and not between ppl of totally different culture! Read some history! Lands were not so united and yes they were fighting each other! But religion unified lands and so on against a bigger threat they were all making a pact to fight together.
Nope.

In the past soldiers fought for individuals, not countries. That is how the entire Imperial Roman Period worked and was such a cluster****. Once the emperors had lost their claim via bloodline it was up for grabs who could rally the most soldiers behind them.

Plenty of auxillary and foederati troops were non Roman. Plenty of legionaire were one generation removed from auxillaries who earned citizenship after their tour of duty aka were not technically Roman as well. While cultural assimilation was strong in the early empire, in the late empire it stopped working, partly because the Empire itself split into seperate cultural parts, in some cases actual political entities (GalloRoman empire existed for decades, Palmyrian Empire was a short lived, but strong Roman successor state)

This is how Europe pushed back the ottoman invasion! The crusades were meant to push back and take Constantinopole, after a 350years of muslim invasion.
Yeah, that is bollocks because the Catholics hated the Byzantines until the later were so weakened they decided to jump in. At that point Jerusalem had been under Muslim rules for a centuries and none of "Europe" gave a rat's ass.

Constantinople was Christian when the crusaders took it "back", destroyed the Roman Empire, established puppet states and left the rump region of East Rome in chaos.

If you speak of the later Habsburg Turkish Wars you have the Archdukes fighting over the corpse of Hungary with changing success, Ottoman's greatest ally? France, because of their squabbles with the Habsburgs in Spain, Italy and the Low Countries.

The ottoman empire conquered European land but they never had europeans in their armies fighting their side!!
Europeans the same!!!

...
Wrong, plenty of Europeans fought with the Ottomans or are the Balkans suddenly non European?!? Moldovia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, Greeks, Bosnians... plenty of European vasalls who had significant impact on affairs in the Ottoman empire themselves.
 

Ethalis

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As someone said earlier, the concept of nation states is relatively recent, and only started when technology made wars more and more expansive with the invention of gunpowder, modern fortifications are modern siege. Before that, wars were not fought between nations but between individual lords and their loyal vassals, with a heavy use of foreign mercenaries to make up for the fact that lords only had a small retinue of soldiers but no real standing armies, which were to costly to maintain.

During most of the Middle-Ages, it was the powerful lords and not the kings which held the most power, so it wasn't rare at all for a powerful lord to ally with a foreign power and fight alongside it against his rivals to improve his standing in the realm. Look no further than the Hundred Years War, during which the Duke of Burgundy fought alongside the English against the French.
 

Brave_Lung

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Nope.

In the past soldiers fought for individuals, not countries. That is how the entire Imperial Roman Period worked and was such a cluster****. Once the emperors had lost their claim via bloodline it was up for grabs who could rally the most soldiers behind them.

Plenty of auxillary and foederati troops were non Roman. Plenty of legionaire were one generation removed from auxillaries who earned citizenship after their tour of duty aka were not technically Roman as well. While cultural assimilation was strong in the early empire, in the late empire it stopped working, partly because the Empire itself split into seperate cultural parts, in some cases actual political entities (GalloRoman empire existed for decades, Palmyrian Empire was a short lived, but strong Roman successor state)



Yeah, that is bollocks because the Catholics hated the Byzantines until the later were so weakened they decided to jump in. At that point Jerusalem had been under Muslim rules for a centuries and none of "Europe" gave a rat's ass.

Constantinople was Christian when the crusaders took it "back", destroyed the Roman Empire, established puppet states and left the rump region of East Rome in chaos.

If you speak of the later Habsburg Turkish Wars you have the Archdukes fighting over the corpse of Hungary with changing success, Ottoman's greatest ally? France, because of their squabbles with the Habsburgs in Spain, Italy and the Low Countries.



Wrong, plenty of Europeans fought with the Ottomans or are the Balkans suddenly non European?!? Moldovia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, Greeks, Bosnians... plenty of European vasalls who had significant impact on affairs in the Ottoman empire themselves.
I'm not saying this should never happen! For example the turks helped Vlad Tepes (Dracula) to take over the throne in hope that they will make a marionete out of him! They did not fought against armies tho! They just organized a coup and there were traitors in there!

But Romaniand never fought other romanians on the ottoman side!
They were under invasion and could not fight! they payed fees, etc. But almost all the east european kings tried to push turks back and fought them when they could!

I'm not saying this should never happen in the game! But Think about. Battania took 2 castles from the Vladians and suddenly they have army of vladians? I think it's quite too much. Maybe they could have some Vladians.
But yesterday I was shocked then I saw Empire armies made exclusively out of Aserai, even tho they had just one city probably. Maybe the lord that took that city made that army, but just saying. Maybe it's too random.
 
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The ottoman empire conquered European land but they never had europeans in their armies fighting their side!!
Europeans the same!!!
Janissaries started out as christian slaves.
and Constantinopel was mainly weakened because other cristians sacked the city at he end of the 4th crusade (so much for helping other christians). that was a huge factor for muslim states to gain influence over byzantine lands.
 

jramm

Look no further than the Hundred Years War, during which the Duke of Burgundy fought alongside the English against the French.
These kinds of wars also show just how differently ethnicity was viewed back then. Not even getting into the Oc thing, even a Burgundian would not have considered himself French as we see it today. That was something in the next region over. Sometimes, every city viewed themselves as their own ethnicity, with their own language.

Nationalism of the 19th Century basically went around stuffing a dozen similar ethnic groups into a sack, and called it a 'nation.'
 

blackfang

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Germany conquered a bunch of land in a little known war called world war two, and they certainly raised military forces from their subjugated lands. It wasn't all germans in that army no, the majority by far yes.
 

Brave_Lung

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As someone said earlier, the concept of nation states is relatively recent, and only started when technology made wars more and more expansive with the invention of gunpowder, modern fortifications are modern siege. Before that, wars were not fought between nations but between individual lords and their loyal vassals, with a heavy use of foreign mercenaries to make up for the fact that lords only had a small retinue of soldiers but no real standing armies, which were to costly to maintain.

During most of the Middle-Ages, it was the powerful lords and not the kings which held the most power, so it wasn't rare at all for a powerful lord to ally with a foreign power and fight alongside it against his rivals to improve his standing in the realm. Look no further than the Hundred Years War, during which the Duke of Burgundy fought alongside the English against the French.
Yes there were a mix of everything, the history is complex, but there were some limits when this didn't happen and back then the empire was more important and the religion.

The game is more simple, but I have the feeling it can be better than Warband, not just copy paste. I know this according actual game mechanics is logic, but many aspects must be taken in consideration.
A folk would not join you just like that today because you conquered their land yesterday! And they will say yes! We fight you now! We kill our own ppl, we are ... whatever.