MP Running speed

[Olaf The Cruel]

How come Heavy shield inf and 2h can run faster than light archers?? Archers can't kill or run away from inf now, after the disaster update 1.5.0. I would like to hear someone at TW explaining me the logic behind making inf super overpowered vs archers. Because I simply don't get it. Was the MP aspect of the game simply way to funny? Is that why you killed archers? I wonder if TW is even testing or playing their own game. TW should FIX the archers issue ASAP, before more people are quitting the game. I don't see many veterans playing anymore, right now Captain mode is DEAD! And that sucks, because that is the only mode I play....

 

[jon01]

Archers can't run away from inf now. I would like to hear someone at TW explaining me the logic

I'd imagine the logic is that it stops archers from being able to constantly kite against infantry who have caught up with them. I've seen videos previously where archers have been able to run away within a one/two meter distance of chasing infantry and continue firing off shots at them from their bow at the same time. Archery mechanics might change, and apparently there's a Captains patch coming up, but until that happens, I'd recommend varying up your strategies to win battles.

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

I'd imagine the logic is that it stops archers from being able to constantly kite against infantry who have caught up with them. I've seen videos previously where archers have been able to run away within a one/two meter distance of chasing infantry and continue firing off shots at them from their bow at the same time. Archery mechanics might change, and apparently there's a Captains patch coming up, but until that happens, I'd recommend varying up your strategies to win battles.

Yes, you are right, and that is EXACTLY how archers should be. They should be able to kite all inf classes, and not be slower than them, that is moronic that they are!. Inf are not a counter to archers! Cav is! And no matter how much skill you have in playing archers today after the 1.5.0 update, you cannot do anything if a inf group decides to run you down, you are dead! Before the 1.5.0 update my clan had no problems vs archers. Even if we were 5x2h vs 6x archers. Because we used tactics. But thx for your recommendation....

 

[jon01]

There might be other things that could be better about archers in Captains, but they shouldn't be able to simply run away once they've been reached by infantry. If you've been reliant on archers doing this, then that's just cheese tactics. It's very unimpressive. Part of the strategy should be about holding off infantry from your archers with more than just their speed. But the main reason archers shouldn't be able to do this is because of how toxic and unfun it is for infantry players to have to deal with in other game modes (if not Captains too). A lot of people complained about it.

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

There might be other things that could be better about archers in Captains, but they shouldn't be able to simply run away once they've been reached by infantry. If you've been reliant on archers doing this, then that's just cheese tactics. It's very unimpressive. Part of the strategy should be about holding off infantry from your archers with more than just their speed. But the main reason archers shouldn't be able to do this is because of how toxic and unfun it is for infantry players to have to deal with in other game modes (if not Captains too). A lot of people complained about it.

I think we are talking past each other here. You don't play much cap mode I can understand. And I it's clear to me that you are not being objective about the balance in this game. And you are not listening to my arguments. Because you play inf with shields only. All the people that complain about archers in cap mode, are noobs with shields, having no clue, and don't play together. You want to be inf, and kill every other class with no effort or tactic. People like you, complaining about archers, all though you can't play archers really, or have any skill with shields, are the reason why we are in the situation we are in right now in cap mode. Because there are so so many noobs playing the game, having a subjective opinion about the balance..

 

[jon01]

Settings in MP apparently have to be global across all game modes, so we do have to consider how archer speed will affect gameplay in modes other than Captains. But also, I don't look to Captains for melee fights. My interest in it is all to do with strategy. I want the three classes to be balanced. Archer AI can be improved in ways other than making them fast on foot. Being able to simply run away from infantry if they've caught up to you is an incredibly cheap tactical move. There should be more emphasis on having to protect archers from pushing infantry with other units and minding where you position them strategically. Otherwise, it really is just cheap and unimpressive. Appealing to realism to excuse it in an MP game with matchmaking and healthbars is also really silly.

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

Settings in MP apparently have to be global across all game modes, so we do have to consider how archer speed will affect gameplay in modes other than Captains. But also, I don't look to Captains for melee fights. My interest in it is all to do with strategy. I want the three classes to be balanced. Archer AI can be improved in ways other than making them fast on foot. Being able to simply run away from infantry if they've caught up to you is an incredibly cheap tactical move. There should be more emphasis on having to protect archers from pushing infantry with other units and minding where you position them strategically. Otherwise, it really is just cheap and unimpressive. Appealing to realism to excuse it in an MP game with matchmaking and healthbars is also really silly.

I don't understand where you are going with this. Archers can't run and shoot at the same time, you know that right ? So, if inf makes them run or forces them to change position, then the rest of your team are free to make moves with no incoming fire from those archers...And inf with shields can "suck" up enemy archer fire with shields, if they are close to archers, and thereby make your allies free to move again without incoming fire from them. And it would be insane and moronic gameplay, if archers would run slower than heavy inf, and then would "freeze" and be forced to use melee when inf get's too close. Again, inf is not a counter to archers. And I don't see any problem with specific unit settings for every game mode. Try to understand it, inf with shields is not a counter to archers. And it's not easy at all to be effective with archers. You just think that, because you don't have any experience with archers, other being owned by them...Again, because you simply don't want to understand it, INF is NOT a COUNTER to ARCHERS. My clan have several tactics to deal with archers, and they pose no problem for us. Other than EXACTLY making it more funny to play, because you need to think and use a tactic and work together to counter them...

 

[jon01]

And I don't see any problem with specific unit settings for every game mode.

If you're suggesting there should be different settings/mechanics for different game modes, this was suggested in beta more than a year ago, but the developers themselves said they "can not split the game mechanics for different game modes" for whatever reason:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/current-issues-being-working-on.430838/page-3#post-9531796

So unfortunately we have to consider the mechanics as universal for all game modes.

Archers can't run and shoot at the same time, you know that right ?

They can jump away and shoot at the same time. Not the bots, but real players. After the 1.5 update, it's now less feasible for them to keep on doing this. If they were able to run faster, the advanced players out there would probably be able to run and shoot and keep the same distance, especially since the chasing infantry would have to bring up their shield when they shoot, which slows you down.

But it's also enormously unfun, say in TDM, if you hold your shield up at an archer firing at you, close the distance, go to attack, and then he just runs away (even if he doesn't fire back at you periodically, which with faster foot speed, he would). It's a similar deal to Horse Archers, which were banned in popular Warband servers, just because of how toxic and anti-fun they were to play against. And at least Horse Archers were specific to one faction, so they weren't as widespread as archers. With archers on foot, they definitely shouldn't have that ability that Horse Archers have of simply moving away from infantry if they get near. Not because of realism, but because of a consideration of what's fun to play overall.

As for dealing with archers in Captains mode, I would send cavalry to deal with archers. This is nothing new, since this kind of strategy (and much more) has already been part of Warband for over a decade. It's very elementary and easy to understand. But if the archers were so poorly positioned that infantry actually managed to catch up with them, that should be the archers done for, unless they get help from other units. Other things can improve about archers, but their foot speed right now is reasonable.

And I want to make clear that I'm against increasing the foot speed of archers specifically. I'm open to the idea of reducing the speed of shock infantry. They could definitely do with a significant nerf.

 

[CTH.]

Would be ok if archers could be able to kite from heavy inf with large shields like varyags. But they shouldnt be able to kite from light inf that cant protect themselves fully or at all from arrows.

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

Would be ok if archers could be able to kite from heavy inf with large shields like varyags. But they shouldnt be able to kite from light inf that cant protect themselves fully or at all from arrows.

I don't agree. All inf, light or not, should not be able to run faster than light archers, especially not if they are in shield wall mode. That will kill the tactic and game play for both classes. And make it extremely boring to play. If inf want to charge down archers 1v1 they will have to use Tactic and be smart. They will have to chase them into a corner, or sneak behind them in an ambush. What is the point of being archers then? If the second some inf group decides to run you down you will have to run, only to be caught, and then of cause die 100% in melee, without firing one single arrow? Remember archers can't make damage while running.