Request for clarity on 'captain' combat perks

[SomeWeirdSins]

Please explain the mechanics for the combat perks that apply buffs to allied troops.

I see perks that have text "in the formation you are leading" for example the one-handed perk "deflect"

Do these apply to units in my party?
Do they apply to units in an army I am leading?
If a companion has a perk and I assign him to the Infantry formation does the infantry get his perk bonuses?
If I assign two companions to the infantry formation does this formation get both of companion bonuses? If not which companion bonuses apply?

Thanks!

 

[black_bulldog]

If you are leading a formation (follow me command) then your buff applies. That should apply to a party or army.
If a companion has the perk it applies. For instance if you assign them to infantry and then use F6 command they are the default leader of that group.
I'm almost positive only 1 companion can be in charge of a formation, so only 1 buff applies. But if you have 2 companions in the same formation if the first one goes down the second will be in charge and the troops get the buff from them.

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

I appreciate the response, black bulldog. I've gotten several different answer from community members. Is there official information anywhere? (or someone who has done testing/checked the code)

 

[black_bulldog]

I appreciate the response, black bulldog. I've gotten several different answer from community members. Is there official information anywhere? (or someone who has done testing/checked the code)

I know I saw it somewhere but I'll be damn if I can remember. I want to say either a update blog or a dev post but I wish I could be more helpful, sorry.

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

Thanks! Is there a way to @ the developers that would answer this question?

 

[mylittletantan]

If you are leading a formation (follow me command) then your buff applies. That should apply to a party or army.
If a companion has the perk it applies. For instance if you assign them to infantry and then use F6 command they are the default leader of that group.
I'm almost positive only 1 companion can be in charge of a formation, so only 1 buff applies. But if you have 2 companions in the same formation if the first one goes down the second will be in charge and the troops get the buff from them.

No, you are wrong in a number of ways. This is to my knowledge never how it worked in previous versions, iirc the code from pre 1.5.0 would only ever assign a captain to any formation if the player got the screen where they can choose. Please provide a source that proves something other than the following for 1.5.0.

(or someone who has done testing/checked the code)

Just debugged with dnSpy to be sure and here it is. (1.5.0 dlls)

This is the code responsible for captain assignment

Spoiler

Unless the player choose formations (the screen at the start of battles when in army), the above code should be used.

The captain for a given formation is chosen by checking the units in the formation. The first alive hero unit found is chosen. There is only 1 captain for a formation, if it dies the formation tries to find another alive hero in the formation to be the next captain, if it can't find one no captain is assigned.

The player is not in a formation and so will never be chosen as captain (unless it got to choose a formation at the start of the battle).
The player can still order a formation that has a companion as captain (no need to F6).

 

[black_bulldog]

No, you are wrong in a number of ways. This is to my knowledge never how it worked in previous versions, iirc the code from pre 1.5.0 would only ever assign a captain to any formation if the player got the screen where they can choose. Please provide a source that proves something other than the following for 1.5.0.


Just debugged with dnSpy to be sure and here it is. (1.5.0 dlls)

This is the code responsible for captain assignment

Spoiler

Unless the player choose formations (the screen at the start of battles when in army), the above code should be used.

The captain for a given formation is chosen by checking the units in the formation. The first hero unit found is chosen. The player is not in a formation and so will never be chosen as captain (unless it got to choose a formation at the start of the battle). There is only 1 captain for a formation. The player can still order formation that have companions as captains (no need to F6).

Ok well my bad then...

 

[Bannerman Man]

The captain for a given formation is chosen by checking the units in the formation. The first alive hero unit found is chosen.

That's very useful info. Thanks!

 

[nereid]

The captain for a given formation is chosen by checking the units in the formation. The first alive hero unit found is chosen. There is only 1 captain for a formation, if it dies the formation tries to find another alive hero in the formation to be the next captain, if it can't find one no captain is assigned.

The player is not in a formation and so will never be chosen as captain (unless it got to choose a formation at the start of the battle).
The player can still order a formation that has a companion as captain (no need to F6).

So this means that all captain perks are more or less useless for the player if she isn't in an army and gets to command a formation?

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

So this means that all captain perks are more or less useless for the player if she isn't in an army and gets to command a formation?

Yes, I belive that this should be fixed. The player should be the 'default' captain if there is no companion assigned to a formation

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Wait so even if your the commander of the army your combat perks don't apply? Idk that seems wrong.

 

[MostBlunted]

Nobody knows for sure, TW keeps this a secret treasure.

 

[mylittletantan]

That's very useful info. Thanks!

Surely you could have easily found/answered this yourself, judging by all your great posts explaining code etc, but happy to help.

And to be clear.

Do these apply to units in my party?
Do they apply to units in an army I am leading?

Captain perks are active for the formation a hero is assigned to. If you or your companion is assigned to a formation, all units in that formation should receive the effects.

If a companion has a perk and I assign him to the Infantry formation does the infantry get his perk bonuses?

Yes but only the captain parts of perks.

If I assign two companions to the infantry formation does this formation get both of companion bonuses? If not which companion bonuses apply?

No, only one companion is captain at a given time however assigning multiple companions to a formation can still be beneficial in case the captain gets routed/wounded/killed. I am not sure but would guess that the order of characters would be based on their position in the party list.

So this means that all captain perks are more or less useless for the player if she isn't in an army and gets to command a formation?

Yes, unless the player gets to choose a formation they will never use their captain perk effects.

The player should be the 'default' captain if there is no companion assigned to a formation

Agreed, or formations should check unassigned heroes on the team as far as possible before assigning a hero multiple formations.

Wait so even if your the commander of the army your combat perks don't apply? Idk that seems wrong.

Personal combat perk effects work for the player, captain perk effects only work if the player is assigned as captain to a formation.

Nobody knows for sure, TW keeps this a secret treasure.

Except all the modders browsing their code.

 

[Bannerman Man]

So this means that all captain perks are more or less useless for the player if she isn't in an army and gets to command a formation?

Every perk is designed to have two effects, and at least half of each one affects the player in some respect, so no perk is totally useless to the player.

I also believe they are working on revamping the "Order of Battle" system (i.e. formation leaders), so the player may get to choose a formation to lead at some point.

 

[nereid]

Every perk is designed to have two effects, and at least half of each one affects the player in some respect, so no perk is totally useless to the player.

I also believe they are working on revamping the "Order of Battle" system (i.e. formation leaders), so the player may get to choose a formation to lead at some point.

Yeah, I know that the personal part of the perk still applies, but I thought that the captain part applies to all troops under your command, be it as the commander or as the leader of a formation.

 

[Lag'ier Barlida]

It would be good if player or any other party leader could be the default "captain" to all formations.

Or it is unfair or senseless for the fight between a legion with a party with same number.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

nereid said:
So this means that all captain perks are more or less useless for the player if she isn't in an army and gets to command a formation?

Yes, unless the player gets to choose a formation they will never use their captain perk effects.

Lol the more I learn about perks and mechanics the more mad and disappointed I always get!
It's so much better to just assume everything works the way I imagine it does and never check!
Placebo power go!

I'm glad that I don't put too much weight on the secondary effets of perks and moslty focus on my MC with the scenario of total disaster and having to face down a massive fore alone. I mean except if can MAX 5 INT skills by level 13 like in warband, then I do that.

 

[El Capitan]

Yes, unless the player gets to choose a formation they will never use their captain perk effects.

Lol the more I learn about perks and mechanics the more mad and disappointed I always get!
It's so much better to just assume everything works the way I imagine it does and never check!
Placebo power go!

I'm glad that I don't put too much weight on the secondary effets of perks and moslty focus on my MC with the scenario of total disaster and having to face down a massive fore alone. I mean except if can MAX 5 INT skills by level 13 like in warband, then I do that.

That's disappointing, I thought companions in your party could be captains by simply putting them in a formation. Well I
guess you'll have to create a party for them and then create an army, then put them in your army. if I'm understanding this correctly?

 

[mylittletantan]

I thought companions in your party could be captains by simply putting them in a formation

That's how you do it as of 1.5.0, that quote was for captain perks for the player.
If you put a companion in a formation then when a battle starts the formation searches for heroes in the formation, finds your companion and assigns it.

 

[El Capitan]

That's how you do it as of 1.5.0.
If you put a companion in a formation then when a battle starts the formation searches for heroes in the formation, finds your companion and assigns it.

Ahh, I see. so I was right. Thats great, thanks for clarifying.