Religion Thread

[crodio]

I am no one to say who is christian and who is not.
You just said a few posts about that you are against religions having religious leaders, so you think that everyone should have his own intepretation and stuff like that, but then you say that religions should have a sole interpretation and any differnet interpretation is "an insult to the religion".
Or do you expect a giant pool of individual people to have the same interpretation of a single script?

 

[DeGoblin]

I think people like to blame all the extremism on the religion just to keep race out of it. It sounds better and its more tolerant then saying Arabs. Truth is religion is a mean not a cause and the extremism comes from culture and poverty. Aggressive phrases can be found in other religions too but that's why terrorism and violent extremism is more common in Islam nowadays.
edited *

 

[Duh]

I think people like to blame all the extremism on the religion just to keep race out of it. It sounds better and its more tolerant then saying Arabs. Truth is religion is a mean not a cause and the extremism comes from culture and poverty.

I am not sure about what you are trying to say 

 

[DeGoblin]

I'm saying there's more then religion that takes to define ground ready for aggressive zealotism but also economics and culture in general. And that's why terrorism in Europe or extreme Islam in general is less common with the Turks then with Arabs, even they share a religion. There just isn't a single element to blame (definetly not genetics though if that's where you think this was going).

 

[Vissy]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

The fact is, poverty is found everywhere. Only in the muslim world has it caused this sort of violence. Beliefs have a direct link to actions --> religion is a main driving factor here.

 

[Duh]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

Age-old is hardly fitting, since terrorism and observations linked to it are very modern. It is also likely that the vast majority of terrorist is poor and uneducated - that however does not make poverty the driving force.

Fact is, poverty is found everywhere. Only in the muslim world has it caused this sort of violence. Beliefs have a direct link to actions --> religion is a main driving factor here.

Bull**** - poverty has caused violence of much larger scale all across the world and it is a driving force to many a revolution. While revolutions and terrorism are linked - i still wouldnt conclude poverty to be the key factor for terrorists (though it certainly plays a major role for recruitment of fighters), since the early phase of modern terrorism wasn't centered around it, but rather a political agenda and an all-too-powerful opponent.

 

[Jhessail]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

Well well well, you're wrong if Wikipedia is to be trusted:

Mohammed Atta: middle-class, had a "degree" in architecture, was doing post-graduate studies in Germany.
Abdulaziz al-Omari: poor background, had a "degree", also radicalised as a young man under Salafi cleric Sulaiman Al-Alwan.
Wail al-Shehri: poor background, had a "degree" as a PE teacher.
Waleed al-Shehri: the brother of the above. Was a student but dropped out to join Al-Qaeda.
Satam al-Suqami: no background information. Was a law student but dropped out to join Al-Qaeda.
Marwan al-Shehhi: poor background, never finished his studies in Germany and was repeatedly warned for poor academic progress.
Fayez Banihammad: middle-class, no higher education.
Mohand al-Shehri: not related to the other two al-Shehri. No background information, washed out of a Saudi college.
Hamza al-Ghamdi: poor background, no higher education.
Ahmed al-Ghamdi: poor background, no higher education.
Hani Hanjour: middle-class, no higher education.
Khalid al-Mihdhar: "prominent" family, no higher education.
Majed Moqed: no background information, dropped out of law school to join Al-Qaeda.
Nawaf al-Hazmi: poor background, no higher education - probably didn't even finish high school considering he fought in Chechnya and Afghanistan from a young age with his brother, below.
Salem al-Hazmi: brother of the above, poor background, no higher education.
Ziad Jarrah: wealthy family, never finished his studies to become an engineer.
Ahmed al-Haznawi: middle-class, no higher education.
Ahmed al-Nami: poor background, no higher education.
Saeed al-Ghamdi: no background information, dropped out of college to join Al-Qaeda.

So not a single one of them had a PhD, though I guess Atta could have gained his and Wikipedia omitted it for some reason, but certainly the hijackers do not qualify for your "many had PhD"s bull****. Six came from middle-class/prominent/wealthy families, though sadly Wikipedia did not have background information for a lot of them. Still, hyperbole and exaggeration Das Knecht, tut tut.

 

[DeGoblin]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

The fact is, poverty is found everywhere. Only in the muslim world has it caused this sort of violence. Beliefs have a direct link to actions --> religion is a main driving factor here.

I'm not saying poverty is the cause, I'm saying its a cause. Like Duh stated.

Why is this extremism not as common in Turkey or even Kurdistan or India? Hell, all 3 of those places are full of poverty. Maybe its something more rooted in the Arabian culture. I think many people think this way too but like I said, i sounds close to racism so its not heard often.

So not a single one of them had a PhD, though I guess Atta could have gained his and Wikipedia omitted it for some reason, but certainly the hijackers do not qualify for your "many had PhD"s bull****. Six came from middle-class/prominent/wealthy families, though sadly Wikipedia did not have background information for a lot of them. Still, hyperbole and exaggeration Das Knecht, tut tut.

Maybe he was wrong here but he does have a point. ISIS for example is known to attract many middle class members as well as the low class.

 

[Vissy]

*snip*

I stand corrected.

It doesn't change the main gist of my point, though.

 

[ancalimon]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

The fact is, poverty is found everywhere. Only in the muslim world has it caused this sort of violence. Beliefs have a direct link to actions --> religion is a main driving factor here.

Evil is the cause of terrorism. Yes religion is the cause of evil. Religion is not a book. It's following what people say and do. It's killing logic and common sense. It's denying nature.

The link I gave you proves that there is a mathematical formula and a message unbound by time inside the book of peace~nonresistence (quran of islam).

And no.. It caused a million times more violence in the Christian world. According to Quran, Europeans (today) generally are more like what a Muslim should be like than the people in the Middle East because they don't deny nature and also the human nature (The God's system) as much as the Middle Easterners do. The result is that "The God" rewards them in this world more.

Here is the guy's youtube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/user/edipyuksel

 

[Duh]

Nope, evil isn't the cause either. The quest for easy, yet empty answers is common and well liked in all countries i suppose.

 

[QuintessentialTurk]

(definetly not genetics though if that's where you think this was going).

There's this: http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/your-countrys-not-your-blood/

 

[Vissy]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

Age-old is hardly fitting, since terrorism and observations linked to it are very modern. It is also likely that the vast majority of terrorist is poor and uneducated - that however does not make poverty the driving force.

Fact is, poverty is found everywhere. Only in the muslim world has it caused this sort of violence. Beliefs have a direct link to actions --> religion is a main driving factor here.

Bull**** - poverty has caused violence of much larger scale all across the world and it is a driving force to many a revolution. While revolutions and terrorism are linked - i still wouldnt conclude poverty to be the key factor for terrorists (though it certainly plays a major role for recruitment of fighters), since the early phase of modern terrorism wasn't centered around it, but rather a political agenda and an all-too-powerful opponent.

So do you accept that beliefs lead to actions?

 

[Duh]

Beliefs, knowledge, feelings, traits all play a role. But that isn't the point you were trying to make. Out of all those factors you were singling out religion, one of a great many beliefs a human may hold within his mind, as a key factor to fuel terrorism.

 

[Vissy]

Beliefs by far play the largest role. What, you're really telling me that personal traits, feelings or knowledge (of all things) play a larger role than your image of the world. You're underplaying the importance of belief.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I think he's saying that all those things inform the latter, as opposed to the latter existing independently of them and solely hinging on one trait.

 

[Duh]

Yeah, nice change of terms there. Beliefs, traits, feelings and knowledge determine your image of the world together. Though truly this is just nitpicking terms - traits determine your feelings and how you process information, which influences your knowledge (, which is just a term for justified beliefs), and your beliefs. You however weren't talking about beliefs in general, but about religion. And you have yet to substanstiate your claim that it is what causes middle eastern terrorism.

 

[Flin Flon]

You're repeating the age-old argument of "Poverty causes terrorism, not religion". Did you know that the 9/11 bombers were all middle-class and many had PhDs?

Doesn't that only give more substance to the argument that 9/11 was just as much a political motivation.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Until we actually start submitting surveys to terrorists, I think it will be pretty hard to conclusively establish their motivations.



I'm partly joking, but I do think it is a bit difficult to establish what exactly motivates the individual terrorists without some sort of empirical data due to the fact that it's quite difficult to gauge how honest someone is if you ask them why did something.

For example, a terrorist could say he became one based on religious faith, but really he might have been motivated by the promise of pay or status, although he might not exactly be willing to say that in public or on record.

 

[Flin Flon]

Anonymous surveys. Problem solved. Make it happen Ulf.

I agree, there might be underlining motivations that terrorists aren't aware of themselves. Like an inferiority complexion, as I've mentioned before.