Religion (...and diplomacy)

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Aeon

Aeon

Squire
That should be in "Suggestion" thread, but it's a big one. And because of its nature, I would not risk to flame whole suggestion thread.
Please understand there is no offense to deal with religion, this is just a game.




Part 1 , Description.


Insert one new NPC in each town. Preferably in open street, just like guild master, so that anyone could access him.
Relation from one NPC affect immediately and equally others religious NPCs from same religion/faction (other towns).

NPC name could be : " [Faction] 's Priest "


- Are NPC fully customizable (face, cloth) ?
- Would it be possible to switch name and appearence if town fall to another faction ?




Part 2, Dialog.


Condition : relation with faction religious NPCs < 0
- I wish to grant you a gift, to expiate my sins.
- Yield [player_name], to my sacred power ! You shall pay 10.000 denars.
- Yes, please assent my repentance.  // - No, I did not yet collected enough money.
Click to expand...
+5 relation with faction religious NPCs
-10 relation with other factions religious NPCs

###############################

Condition : relation with faction religious NPCs >= 0
- I wish to grant you a gift, just for yourself.
- Lauded be your charity ! Donate 1.000 denars will help me.
- Yes, please report my devotion to your congregation.  // - No, I did not yet collected enough money.
Click to expand...
+5 relation with faction religious NPCs
-5 relation with other factions religious NPCs

###############################

Condition : relation with faction religious NPCs >= 5
- I wish to grant you a gift, to aid [town_name] beggars.
- Lauded be your charity ! Donate 2.500 denars will provide them assistance.
- Yes, please tell poor people about my goodness.  // - No, I did not yet collected enough money.
Click to expand...
+1 relation with Town.
Chance of night ambush reduced -5%
+5 relation with faction religious NPCs

Does ambush probability could be specified for each town ? if not change -5% to -1%

###############################

Condition : relation with faction religious NPCs >= 20
- I wish to grant you a gift, for your sermon among noble worshipers.
- Lauded be your charity ! Donate 3.000 denars will adorn ceremonies.
- Yes, please inform kingdom nobility about my dignity.  // - No, I did not yet collected enough money.
Click to expand...
+1 Honor.
+5 relation with faction religious NPCs

###############################

Condition : relation with faction religious NPCs >= 50
- I wish to grant you a gift, to help widows and orphans.
- Lauded be your charity ! Donate 6.000 denars will provide them assistance.
- Yes, please comfort every ladies about my valiance.  // - No, I did not yet collected enough money.
Click to expand...
+1 relation with every Ladies ! (from that faction)
+5 relation with faction religious NPCs

###############################

So you start (new game) with 0 relation with any religious NPC.
If you want to resort religious service, you need to pay initially 1000, to access very first one ("aid beggars"). By doing that, you will automatically be disqualified with other religious (-5).
If you want to reach top dialog service ("ladies reputation"), you could straightly spend about 10.000 ("personal donation" x10). But beware : that would crush down other religious relation (-50...). In that case you still could buy pardon but very expensive ("expiate sin" x10 = 100.000 denars) and then will turn you almost heretical with others (unless you had very high rep). So it might be wise to resort others less-cheaper services but without penalty.

Of course with lot of money you could sustain positive relation with every religion at same time. But we'll see next (Part 3) this situation could be insupportable...





Part 3, Optional side quests.


###############################

Condition : You have prisonned Lord X from faction A. Your relation with religion A >0
Probability to receive a supplicating request from religious A to free Lord X

Accept to free Lord : +3 relation religion A.
Refuse to free Lord : -7 relation religion A.

###############################

Condition : Relation with religion faction A >0 . Village (belong to this religion/faction A) looted.
Probability to receive a supplicating request from religious A to help (to pay a contribution...) this village.

Accept to help : nothing!
Refuse to help : -3 relation religion A

Amount of help  = (current relation with religion A) * 100

###############################

So even if you are at war with faction A, if you have positive relation with religion A, you will receive request. Such a paradox if you loot a village and must pay after :smile:
Imagine you are from faction C, faction A and B fight each other, and your positive with religion A and B. Every villages looted by A or B during warfare may result to a bill you are invited to pay !

And for that last, amount could be quite high... (ex : 55 relation = 5500 per village)

If you want to stop to be harassed by religion requests and keep your money, you better quit trying to be nice with everyone, until you down relation to zero or below.




Question ? Idea ?
So far it's just a concept, feel free to discuss and correct whatever you think it need :smile:
 
I´m not sure I completely agree with this, but I´ll give my two cents on names, based on their real world counterparts:

Nords: Gothi (chieftain priest) or Völur (magical woman)
Swadia: Priest, Cleric or Bishop
Vaegir: Patriarch
Rodhok: Flamine
Khergit: Shaman (as already mentioned)
Sarranid: Sheikh (as said), Ulama, Imam or Mullah
 
Believe me or not, but except "Flamine" your list was exactly mine at first intention.  :grin:

Gothi is perfect for paganism order, but I said to myself "Since nobody know Gothi, this could confuse..."
I dislike Bishop because it's definitively undertone Christianism and too high rank (Chorbishop is worst than unknown). Same way with Patriarch, Orthodox connotation and too higher rank.

-> The idea is to suggest spirituality and religiousness, but not factual religion. In order to suit with various third mods, or supposed background (ex: some claim devs designed Vaegir as pre-christian Russian period ).

About Shaman the term is widely used all around the world, and sound more generic than "Lama".
Sheikh is nice because it is not only related to religion but also refere to a wise man, implied a natural authority among his community.

Did you mean "Flamen" ? good but too early to match with middle-age I'm afraid (Rome empire...).
 
Hmn, I possibly confused the plural flamine with flamen in singular (not so good in latin  :neutral:). My idea was, like you said, to make Rhodoks similar to ancient romans in this religious aspect (even if in different time frames). But I agree with you that if we could find some generic names non related to christianism it would be better (and then, maybe flamen would fit in well).
 
what if we want to be something of an atheist or an agnostic, what will be our options? From the current, option, i avoid doing quests that will hurt other religious faction, but will do quest and options to help out many the poor, the widow, and the children.
 
All is about choice. You could simply never deal with religious.
(they won't bother you at default 0 relation)

But if you do, well you have to assume repercussions. It is impossible to access usefull religious service without hurting others (condition require >= 5, and initial option to improve relation anger others).


Assuming you try to manage every faction religions, by avoiding to anger others. However you need to raise/maintain relation >= 5 to access neutral services (that not anger others).

Let's start with Nords, initiate with "personal donation", as expected it reduce others to negative.
Nords : +5
Swadia : -5
Vaegir : -5
Rhodok : -5
Khergit : -5
Sarranid : -5

Now to gain Swadia you have to compensate negative with "expiate sins" then "personal donation"
Nords : +5 (-10)(-5)
Swadia : +5
Vaegir : -20
Rhodok : -20
Khergit : -20
Sarranid : -20

Then Vaegir, "expiate sins"x4 and "personal donation"
Nords : +5 (-10)(-5) (-10)(-10)(-10)(-10)(-5)
Swadia : +5 (-10)(-10)(-10)(-10)(-5)
Vaegir : +5
Rhodok : -65
Khergit : -65
Sarranid : -65


lol ! exponential effects. Let's stop here :smile:
To gain only half of the six factions religions, and maintain them all to +5 relation...  You'd have to raise Nords +60, Swadia +45.
It's at least  150.000 denars !!  :twisted: 

Oh, and forget about gain the three others (Rhodok, Khergit, Sarranid), they now felt to -65 and will drop to -100 next if you try ...price & challenge would be a nightmare :wink:

This is why I believe average players could practically keep decent relationship with 2 religions, no more.
And because of Part 3, it will turn even harder to not stick only to the one from affiliated faction.
 
Wilsonrtf said:
I´m not sure I completely agree with this, but I´ll give my two cents on names, based on their real world counterparts:

Nords: Gothi (chieftain priest) or Völur (magical woman)
Swadia: Priest, Cleric or Bishop
Vaegir: Patriarch
Rodhok: Flamine
Khergit: Shaman (as already mentioned)
Sarranid: Sheikh (as said), Ulama, Imam or Mullah
Click to expand...

To stop this discussion right away: Diplomacy is intented to  be a base for other mods which might have changed factions. I won't implement any special names for each faction.
 
About Lords character (or personality) :

You should have noticed, some of your acts and decisions have various influence (positive or negative relation) depending on lords own personalities.
For what I've understood from game_strings.csv and module_script.py, personality could affect effective relation, side quests proposed, assaulting troop ratio, and many more...
I've found 8 kind of personality, (but it could be wrong since their designation is quite messy) :

  • default / custodian
  • martial
  • quarrelsome / badtempered
  • selfrighteous / pitiless
  • cunning
  • sadistic /debauched
  • goodnatured
  • upstanding

Currently there is only one way to reveal lords character, by talking to peasant and town people (about rumor).
They could sometime (rarely :sad:) tell you about a lord (picked randomnly for pool). Result isn't unlocked/shown on Lord info sheet :sad:
I think lords characters are randomnly re-initialized each time you start your game, this is why it will be important to display current personality once you've unlocked it.


I didn't yet write dialogs option to manage it throught Priest.
I think player should earn such disclosure, either with Persuasion skill or a kind of MCQ mini-game. What do you think ?
 
Aeon said:
About Lords character (or personality) :

You should have noticed, some of your acts and decisions have various influence (positive or negative relation) depending on lords own personalities.
For what I've understood from game_strings.csv and module_script.py, personality could affect effective relation, side quests proposed, assaulting troop ratio, and many more...
I've found 8 kind of personality, (but it could be wrong since their designation is quite messy) :

  • default / custodian
  • martial
  • quarrelsome / badtempered
  • selfrighteous / pitiless
  • cunning
  • sadistic /debauched
  • goodnatured
  • upstanding

Currently there is only one way to reveal lords character, by talking to peasant and town people (about rumor).
They could sometime (rarely :sad:) tell you about a lord (picked randomnly for pool). Result isn't unlocked/shown on Lord info sheet :sad:
I think lords characters are randomnly re-initialized each time you start your game, this is why it will be important to display current personality once you've unlocked it.


I didn't yet write dialogs option to manage it throught Priest.
I think player should earn such disclosure, either with Persuasion skill or a kind of MCQ mini-game. What do you think ?
Click to expand...

It's currently possible to find out about the personality of a npc via Chancellor.
 
Since what version ?  :shock: (did not find that option dialog with my)


-- Edit
Whatever... is there something interesting with ladies (personality,pretender,...) that Priest could divulge to player ?
 
My two cents ; why not have the player choose a religion when starting the game. He can then be converted by a religious figurehead, or convert on his own (or renounce all faith) from the camp options menu. And why limit the religions to one per faction when you could set each Lord, Lady, village and town to a certain religion? Wouldn't religion be a little pointless without some good old-fashioned religious turmoil and intolerance? My ideas for the various faiths and denominations are based so closely on real-world religions that I'm going to refer to them by their real-world counterpart, but propose a suggested in-game name for them when I first mention them.

If anybody actually gets offended by anything I say about their religion, then either I'm ignorant or you're oversensitive. By all means, correct my misapprehensions

Swadians uniformly follows the Christian (Rexist?) religion, and is of the Catholic (Unbroken Rexism) denomination. All Swadian lords are Catholic, all towns are Catholic, all villages are Catholic. In times of extreme poverty, however, villages may convert to Catharism (Aesthetic Rexism) 

Rhodoks are also uniformly Catholic.

Vaegirs primarily follows the Orthodox (Original Rexism) denomination. All Boyars, towns, and most villages are Orthodox. However, some of the very isolated villages, such as Uslum, Shulus, Hanun and Fisdnar, are practitioners of Perunism/Slavic Paganism (Lightning God Worshippers). Like the Swadians, Vaegir christians may convert to a heretical denomination, the Bogomils (Duelist Rexism)

Nords are torn between Catholicism and Asatru (War God Worshippers). Most of the younger Jarls are Catholic, all the towns are largely Catholic, but the majority of villages are Asatru. Most of the older Nord Jarls are Asatru practitioners.

Sarranids are practitioners of Islam (The Submission?), and while most Emirs and townsfolk follow the Sunni denomination (Electionists), many villages are of the Shia denomination (Successionists). Perhaps there are even a Kalifah and Madhi bouncing around causing trouble for each other. There are also a few villages which are largely Orthodox Christian.

Khergits are a true melting-pot, and far more tolerant than the other natons. The central parts of the land are Shamanist (Ancestor Channellers?), those bordering the Sarranids are Islamic, and those bordering the Vaegir are Orthodox Christian. The Noyans generally follow the faith of the lands they hold at the start of the game.

Now, as for what effects the actual religions might have on the game...

- Moral and Dutiful ladies will never marry a heathen ; all other ladies suffer a penalty if you don't share their faith. Kings are unlikely to accept a heathen as a vassal, and most Lords will grow to dislike anyone in their faction who doesn't share their religion (exception is the Khergits, aloof from interdenominational politicking). Lords generally won't dislike you for being heathen if you're not part of their faction, or if you're a mercenary.

- Openly declaring yourself an athiest makes almost everybody hate you, true to the times.

- Catholics could have a Pope in Yalen, who is pro-Rhodok. If Yalen is taken by Swadia, or if the player finds the "Papal Pretender", takes up his cause and conquers Yalen, a pro-Swadian antipope could be put into place. Whichever Catholic nation controls the papal seat enjoys moral boosts when fighting against their Catholic brothers ; and whichever nation doesn't have it suffers a penalty.

- Catharist and Bogomil settlements don't pay any tax, ever. A lord will have to loot and pillage his own fief to rectify this. He can't impress them by converting to their faith without giving away all his personal possessions, renouncing violence and wandering the earth in filthy rags.

- A lord stuck with a heathen or heretic fief suffers a reduced tax rate, unless he's in the Khergit Khanate, who doesn't really care about religious politics. They could convert to their fief's religion to rectify this, at the cost of alienating themselves from their peers. Or they could attempt to convert the unbelievers with persuasion skills, village improvements, regular cash bribery or repeated loot'n'pillage terror-tactics.

- Certain religions could give access to some sectarian units. Crusading Knights, Papal Guards and Nordic Battle-Clerics for the Catholics, Beserkergangers and Vlkodak Beastmen for the Nord and Vaegir pagans respectively, Hashashim for the Shia, etc. etc.

- Some of the followers may want to leave you if your religion is incompatible with theirs. Katrin especially is extremely bigoted, and is unlikely to follow anyone but a Catholic, and Firentis is unlikely to follow somebody without a spiritual compass.
 
manekemaan said:
no real life religions in game as it might cause conflicts that we dont need in game 2
Click to expand...
agreed =p maybe some other name similar or you can create it newly xD
 
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