Principality of Arbër

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You guys aim for accuracy, so being an albo made me think i could be helpful. My knowledge of heraldry is more then humble, but what Arisaka and I were trying to do was help your accuracy. By the manner he writes i think he must be from the Republic of Albania, while I'm from Kosovo. I may have been oversensitive about this (been denied my national symbols for half of my life, then tattooed them on my shoulder), but he is not and that's for sh!t sure. I only shared what i knew from schoolbooks which, i must admit, are very biased in Balkans. Summa summarum my sole desire was to share what i know on the topic. If it isn't useful to the mod-team - do tell!  :wink:
 
This Chicken (lol) on the blue background i made is from a Church wich name i cant remember now i will do some research again. I just wanted to be histical accurate how my fellow albanian comrade told you. And yes i know this Chicken looks funny and i dont really like it but its history and i cant change it...

btw: Im also from Kosova/Kosovo i Metohija/Kosmet (i dont care its albania!! XD) but from a city close to Prishtina, obiliq. Well it doesnt matter where im from.

My english isnt the best so i cant say what i really want to sometimes. But i will do best to help you guys.
 
Actually, I don't think the "chicken" is ugly (heck, I think it's even kinda cute) and it definitely has a "medieval-style" to it, so I wouldn't mind if it's used for Arber's CoA. Of course, the problem seems to be exactly that it's not a CoA, but a symbol. Similarly to Bulgaria, where we have this lion (or dragon, we're not quite sure) on the potential ring of the ruler, but which is not a CoA (which is why we're using a CoA from over a century later) and which is not so surprising, considering heraldry wasn't exactly an age-long tradition even in Western Europe in those times, not to mention the Balkans where it practically didn't exist.
Thus, the options for Arber's CoA are the same as Bulgaria's - either use a CoA from later times or use that non-CoA eagle as such (or, of course, find an actual CoA from the mod's time, but that's potentially impossible). I think both options are good - a later CoA would blend in more nicely, while the non-CoA symbol, on the other hand, would come to show that real heraldry hadn't yet made its way through these lands. And it's not like we can have all factions with CoAs either, or at least I'd be very amused by anyone attempting to find the CoA of the Cuman tribes. :grin:
 
Hey guys - I don't mind about the flag for Arber using a proper eagle or your special bird too much. So if there is a big majority to use the (no offense!) well kind of a chicken: I am totaly O.K. with that. I want you to consider though that that sign is a carving in a stone somewhere (at least that's what I think to remember to have read about it in a Wikipedia article - so who knows if that's true?). That means it's no Coat of arms. It's just a sign - maybe a charge - an icon - a carving. Heraldry was meant to make combatants more specifiable in battle because of all the armour. It usually should have followed special criterias such as being easy reconisable and with two or three different colours if it has a charge (animal / weapon etc.). So that combination of the carved bird with blue background is a compromise. But consider as well that that sign was done by some bad or no artist/craftsman, maybe even a kid. Someone might have tried to express an eagle/ a falcon or maybe even a chicken. All the signs like beasts or weapons have changed a lot through history, they also were following a fashion. I see that this special bird seems to be very important to you, as it seems to be a very important icon for Albanian history - at least in Albania. But honestly I think that there must have been a better version of the Arber bird. As I said we were trying to represent the Progon's family COA because of all these circumstances.
Sorry for a long post!
I agree with Quapitty.
The fact that (now famous) chicken-eagle has been drawn by someone medieval artist, doesn't make it ''official''. Maybe Albanian eagle was a bit prettier, and that specific artist was just... well... a bad artist.
And to fill in for what NikeBG said:
For example, look at this Serbian heraldry site, and scroll a bit until you reach the part with 7 images of eagles (the second picture has 4 eagles).
http://www.czipm.org/gruja_grb.html
All those are eagles from medieval Serbian monastery frescoes or carvings.
All of them show the Serbian medieval symbol - a Double-headed Eagle.
But look at them - all eagles are different!
Yes, they all show the Serbian medieval state symbol - but the difference is in art only.
The essence is the same - a double-headed eagle.

What I am trying to say is, even if that chicken-eagle is the only piece of Albanian medieval eagle ever found, that does not mean that it looked deffinitively like that - there could have been more examples, drawn better or even worse.

Black_Scythe said:
So no feud with Gjyra but, where the fcuk did you find that village! I bet even the villagers themselves dont know their place is called Gjyra!
I googled: ''Albania map'', set the size to large, and found the Road map of Albania.
Then I found Kruje, and searched for 3 villages around it. Gjyra was one of them. :razz:

But Gjyra is not the only problem, i will look on history books and try to find the names for the other two villages, and if there werent you can take one village of, as well as one lord.  :sad:
No need to remove one village, even if you can't find the historical one.
It's because the Towns in our mod always have 3 villages in its possession - no more, no less.
So Kruje will have 3 villages too, like it currently has.

You mean, that which you call Varos in your language? We didnt have that kind of stuff. We did manly stuff for a living like fight, loot and rob, we didn't trade :wink:
Well, Varosh means the Town, while the medieval (and the present-day) word for those trade locations was Trg (Square).
If you didn't trade, then how is that Nderfandina was an economic center? Or were you trading only slaves from the recent battles? :wink:

Theres a lot of stuff about Byzantines, Serbs and Bulgarians as well. Just let me know what you guys need.
We don't really know what we need, so it's better that, if you find something interesting, post it, and we'll see if we need it.

ZnasVecKo said:
I am begging MihailoSRB and Black_Scythe not accidentally insult each others nationalities as you know there is going to be third person that is going to insult after the initial insult (and it goes on, and on, and on)
I don't think it will be a problem. Because, for now, on this forum, I haven't argued with anyone!
Ok, I have only argued with those two Bosnians.
Oh, and one Bulgarian fellow...
And those two Serbian traitors...
And one Albanian nationalist...
And one German prick...
Oh, and I almost forgot one Croatian blabbermouth...
Wait, there was another damned Bulgarian, and his friend from Ukraine...
And I believe one cocky Spanish bastard... Oh, wait, he is our leader now, forget about it. :mrgreen:
 
Then why dont we use the CoA of the Kastrioti family wich is the Profile Pic of Black_Scythe ? Its also a Double headed eagle with the Illyrian Sun Symbol. Also why when i recruit soldiers from Kosovo i get only serbians ? Albanians lived in Kosovo even in that time. Yes i know your serb and you wont understand it nor will you accept it and we will never get a proof for it because im a albanian and you are a serb but why dont we just make it half albanian and half serb ? Deal ?
 
Arisaka93 said:
Then why dont we use the CoA of the Kastrioti family wich is the Profile Pic of Black_Scythe ? Its also a Double headed eagle with the Illyrian Sun Symbol. Also why when i recruit soldiers from Kosovo i get only serbians ? Albanians lived in Kosovo even in that time. Yes i know your serb and you wont understand it nor will you accept it and we will never get a proof for it because im a albanian and you are a serb but why dont we just make it half albanian and half serb ? Deal ?

As quapitty said: "Principality of Arber was ruled by the Progon family between 1190 and 1255". Kastrioti family was first mentioned somewhere in late 14. century.

As for Albanians on Kosovo, they probably did live there, but weren't even close to majority until 17. and 18. century (after Great Serb Migrations).
 
Taien said:
Arisaka93 said:
Then why dont we use the CoA of the Kastrioti family wich is the Profile Pic of Black_Scythe ? Its also a Double headed eagle with the Illyrian Sun Symbol. Also why when i recruit soldiers from Kosovo i get only serbians ? Albanians lived in Kosovo even in that time. Yes i know your serb and you wont understand it nor will you accept it and we will never get a proof for it because im a albanian and you are a serb but why dont we just make it half albanian and half serb ? Deal ?

As quapitty said: "Principality of Arber was ruled by the Progon family between 1190 and 1255". Kastrioti family was first mentioned somewhere in late 14. century.

As for Albanians on Kosovo, they probably did live there, but weren't even close to majority until 17. and 18. century (after Great Serb Migrations).

Bull****! But hey, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one!
 
Indeed. And I recommend you to settle with that answer and not raise such a topic again.
Btw, we can't split villages in two. Otherwise, it would've been even better for me, but oh well...
 
Arisaka93 said:
Then why dont we use the CoA of the Kastrioti family wich is the Profile Pic of Black_Scythe ? Its also a Double headed eagle with the Illyrian Sun Symbol.
No, using the Kastrioti family CoA makes no sense.
It's the same thing like when one Bosnian fellow here asked for Bosnia to have a fleur-de-lis as a symbol, even though it only became prominent there in the second half of the XIV century, as a part of a completely different ruling dynasty.

Taien said:
Also why when i recruit soldiers from Kosovo i get only serbians ? Albanians lived in Kosovo even in that time. Yes i know your serb and you wont understand it nor will you accept it and we will never get a proof for it because im a albanian and you are a serb but why dont we just make it half albanian and half serb ? Deal ?
As Nike already pointed out, you can't recruit 2 different cultures from one village, so there will be no splitting.
And no one said that Albanians weren't living in Kosovo, but what about the others?
Because the second most numerous non-Serbian people in medieval Serbia were Vlachs.
Then what about all the Greeks, especially in Kosovo? Or Bulgarians, Hungarians and Latins?
Do you get what am I saying? You can't simply say: ,,Albanians lived in Kosovo, so we should put them there.'' because there were many other people living there, all deserving to be in the mod.

But, if you want real reasons why the 3 Serbian villages in E1200 Kosovo have Serbian peasants, here's why:
Peć - according to the charters written by Stefan Nemanjić in the early XIII century, it was definitely a Serbian settlement (it wasn't a village, it was a town/quare, but we downgraded it for gameplay reasons) and was also noted for its high spiritual qualities. Those were just some of the reasons why Peć quickly became a seat of the Serbian Church in the XIII century, and stayed that for hundreds of years, and it still holds that position today, but only de facto.

Hodča (present day Velika Hoča) - in the XII century, it was granted as a ''fief'' to the Serbian Hilandar monastery, and in the following years, it became a big and strong Serbian spiritual and economical ceter, with a Square, 24 Orthodox churches and 2 or 3 Orthodox monasteries. Based on all the charters and documents that were issued, it is clear that all the names on them are of Slavic origin (it too wasn't a village, but was downgraded).

Pantino - the only true village out of those 3. Yes, it too had a Serbian majority, and it was proved in 1166/7, when practically the ''whole village of brave Serbs'' (as they were mentioned then) sided with Stefan Nemanja's army at the Battle of Pantino, against the mercenary army of his brother Tihomir.

So, the fact that you can recruit only Serbs in those 3 villages doesn't mean that I did that only to show a big middle finger to the Albanians, but it shows that I chose the 3 settlements that were very important, culturally and spiritually, for medieval Serbia.
Nationality in Balkans is a tricky thing, so I would advise that we stay away from these topics.
For example, me and NikeBG could probably argue a lot about the settlements that make Serbo-Bulgarian border. Was there a Serbian majority in Vranya, or a Bulgarian majority in Ravno?
But there would be no point in that.

*

With all that being said, I don't want for this thread to turn into a flame-fest, so there will be no more talks of tese things:
- The current Arber flag stays until strongly proven wrong.
- There will not be any changes to the 3 Serbian villages in Kosovo.
- In this thread, we will not mention any recent centuries (19th, 20th and 21st), except the ones important for the mod. The mentioning of the events that happened in the last 200 years will only heat things up, and will not contribute to the research in any way.
- If anyone wants anything changed, not only for Albania, but for any faction, think about it a little, and give a good and solid reason why the change should be made.
 
MihailoSRB said:
- The current Arber flag stays until strongly proven wrong.
Can't we have both? I've been thinking the same thing about Bulgaria (before this issue appeared) as well - have the three lions CoA for Bulgaria, while the lion/dragon from Kaloyan's ring could be used as his personal banner?
Maybe the same could be used for Arber - the chicken-eagle as faction symbol while the current CoA - for the Progoni dynasty members? Or, wait, are all the Arber lords members of that dynasty? If so, I presume we can't have separate "state CoA" and "lord's CoA" in the game? Hmm...
 
NikeBG said:
Can't we have both? I've been thinking the same thing about Bulgaria (before this issue appeared) as well - have the three lions CoA for Bulgaria, while the lion/dragon from Kaloyan's ring could be used as his personal banner?
Maybe the same could be used for Arber - the chicken-eagle as faction symbol while the current CoA - for the Progoni dynasty members? Or, wait, are all the Arber lords members of that dynasty? If so, I presume we can't have separate "state CoA" and "lord's CoA" in the game? Hmm...
Oh, that? I thought that when you said ''later symbols'' you thought about the Kastrioti CoA, which would be wrong.
But since I misunderstood you, I see no problem in your suggestion, and I even support it.
The current flag (White Eagle on Blue) to remain as a banner of Arber and the 2 Progon family members, while the other 2 non-Progonid lords coud get that second banner (White Eagle on Orange), but only if it is not fictional, of course.
 
I know that you cant split villages in polulations thing u meant like Pec/Peja is Albanian and Hodza or how you call it is serb you know ? But nvm you wont change it so lets end this im pissed off enough on youtube everytime i want watch a video with albanian conent i see all those flames i dont want that here also. You just mentioned that the flag of the Progoni family was a White Eagle with one head on blue background so it doesnt matter how the Eagle/Chiken/Bird has to look like. Also what i wanted to ask is, is it posible to make Music for a location you are now. for example you are traviling around germany then you hear some ancient german music dunno or if you travel through albania you head some albanian shota dance (XD) idk you probably know what i mean.
 
Black_Scythe said:
Who raised it?
Doesn't matter - I wasn't talking to anyone in particular, but to everyone in general (bah, that English with its confusing "you" meanings). :wink:

And, yes, it's possible to have specific music for travelling in specific regions, but I'm not sure if it can be done for specific factions. In the Native game you have music files like "travel_rhodok", "travel_vaegir" etc, but Native has only 6 factions, while E1200 has... many. So my guess is that E1200 uses those 6 as cultures (f.e. Sarranid is used for the Muslims, Swadian for Western and Central Europeans, Rhodoks for Italians, Vaegirs for Eastern Europe etc), so "travel_rhodok" wouldn't be able to play f.e. only in Pisa, but in the whole of Italy. That's just my guess though - I don't really know how those Native cultures are transferred in E1200...
 
Arisaka93 said:
I know that you cant split villages in polulations thing u meant like Pec/Peja is Albanian and Hodza or how you call it is serb you know ? But nvm you wont change it so lets end this im pissed off enough on youtube everytime i want watch a video with albanian conent i see all those flames i dont want that here also.
I don't think you understood my long post (I know you said you have troubles with the English language), so I will try to break it down to you:

1. Peć/Peja will not be an Albanian village, not because I said so, but because history says it was a settlement with a Serbian majority in the year 1200. The fact that Peć has an Albanian majority in the years 2012, 1912, or any other year except 1200, has no meaning for this mod. The borders were like that in 1200 - some people may not like it, but what are you going to do about it? I am from Belgrade, and I lived in Zemun for a good chunk of life - both of those settlements that I love, are Bulgarian in the mod, which I don't like, but such was the situation in the year 1200.
Take the mod 1257AD for example - I suggested that the Serbian settlement Brskovo (also present in this mod) has Saxons to recruit, not Serbians.
Why? Well, because Saxon miners came to Brskovo in the 1240s, greatly boosting Serbian economy. In the following years, even more, and more, and more came there, so the Saxons became a majority in Brskovo. You see? I have no troubles admitting that, because it is historicaly confirmed.

2. When you say ''nvm, you won't change it'' it sounds like you think I decide everything, and that it must be done my way, whatever you, or the others say.
But it's the opposite - I am just one of many.
If you give a good suggestion that is historicaly confirmed, than my word doesn't worth anything, and your suggestion will be accepted.
That's why I said that there will be no changes to the Serbian settlements on Kosovo - not because of my will, but because of history.
It doesn't matter you give a suggestion, or Black_Scythe, or the forum member I never seen before - if the suggestion is good and historical - we will add it.

NikeBG said:
Doesn't matter - I wasn't talking to anyone in particular, but to everyone in general (bah, that English with its confusing "you" meanings). :wink:
Yes, one of the biggest flaws in the English language - ''You'' is both plural and singular word...
 
MihailoSRB said:
...if the suggestion is good and historical - we will add it.
If we can. :wink: There have been many and various good suggestions for improving the mod, but implementing them is not so easy (especially some of them - just last night, before falling asleep, I was thinking of how great one system would be, which is doable, but with lot of work). As one of our writers and my namesake says: "It's one thing to want something, it's a second thing to be able to do it and it's a third and fourth thing to actually do it."
 
In short words Albania was an autonomous protectorate of the Byzantines.The northern Albania (Modern Day Presevo and Kosovo)was invaded by the Serbian Empire and South Albania(Modern-day Albania) remained  :facepalm:  as byzantinian etc....Përshëndetje çuna! :mrgreen:     



 
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