Principality of Arbër

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Arisaka93

Recruit
Hello guys,
I just tried out your new mod and first started with this Principality. Its very good made but there are some stuff that could be fixed/Edited.

First of all the flag. The real flag/Banner of the Principality of Arbër was this one.

Flag_of_the_Principality_of_Arber.JPG

Also northern Albanians were Catholics not Orthodox.

It would also be awesome if you could the Albanian "Plis" (Some sort of Hat) for the Albanian Peasents. (I know modeling is not easy but i just want to suggest this)

http://www.albanien.ch/forum/newinst/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13444 (German site could not find in english)
7884335.jpg

85-Arme1.jpg

Or maybe the whole dress?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Albanian_clothing

 
Principality of Arber was ruled by the Progon family between 1190 and 1255 and therefore we used the banner of the Progons. It's a silver eagle on blue. That banner source is more reliable and understandable than the thing on gold I believe. And honestly that chicken from Wikipedia and the movie is not very cool is it?  :wink:
 
Arisaka93 said:
It would also be awesome if you could the Albanian "Plis" (Some sort of Hat) for the Albanian Peasents. (I know modeling is not easy but i just want to suggest this)
Or maybe the whole dress?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Albanian_clothing
Well, most of the items that we make are used for numerous factions (for example, Muslim helmets, South Slavic armours), and we rarely do a troop/faction specific items, at least as of recently.
However, we do have lots of items that are unique (faction-heraldic-armours, Almughavar helmet), i.e. used only for one troop or for player.
But those items are mostly for the higher-level troops, meaning that we probably will not do unique items for Peasants - not just Albanians, but any Peasants.
And as I said, as of recently (because of the lack of modellers) we are either making regional eqipment, that several factions can use, or taking the items other people made, and released it as Open Source Pack.

As for the Albanian traditional outfit, I doubt that Albanians were wearing that to war.
In 18th or 19th century probably, but in Middle-ages... I doubt it.
 
MihailoSRB said:
As for the Albanian traditional outfit, I doubt that Albanians were wearing that to war.
In 18th or 19th century maybe, but in Middle-ages...I doubt it.
Depends which one. They certainly wouldn't have worn their Sunday clothes to war, and let's also not forget that a number of elements in our modern folklore (including the traditional clothing) are from later times. But some of those things certainly would've been used (the opintsi/opingat f.e. would've been used in those times too, IMO, as well as a number of other things). But such details are certainly too far out of our scope at the moment - once the mod finishes expanding and if we get a good influx of skilled modellers and texturers (or if someone releases such an OSP), only then we can start going into such details. Until then - nomad boots for all peasants (since they look the most like the navushta this guy's wearing). :wink:
 
I was not Complaining i just asked. Still thanks that you took attention on my topic. If i find anything else about this faction i will post it here.
 
Arisaka93 said:
I was not Complaining i just asked. Still thanks that you took attention on my topic. If i find anything else about this faction i will post it here.

I always wondered about that banner as well, since we had the flag posted by you on our schoolbooks, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean its accurate! Other than that, i can assure you these guys do a really great job with their research. Rrofsh!
 
Yeah very good job love that mod :grin: Owning Ragusa now with my Progoni Comrades haha

Modteam Rrofsh sa Malet!! ^^
 
Black_Scythe said:
I always wondered about that banner as well, since we had the flag posted by you on our schoolbooks, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean its accurate!
Heraldry of Balkans (and Eastern Europe) is always a tricky thing.
We had the same problem with the Serbian banner, and like yours, it's also the Eagle (but our has two heads, unlike yours, and that means our Eagle is definitelly more manly). :wink:
Jokes aside, in our history books, the official banner for medieval Serbia is White Eagle on Red Background (like the one in my signature).
However, I've found some pretty convincing evidence that we used the Red Eagle on White Background up untill 1340's, when we transfered to the (more famous) White Eagle.
So, yes, it is pretty hard to guess the exact colours of Eastern heraldry, especially because a lot of symbols are found on coins, reliefs, stonework, woodwork, etc. - all the stuff where there isn't any coloring.

Other than that, i can assure you these guys do a really great job with their research. Rrofsh!
Speaking of which, I did a 1/3 of Arberian research.
And when we needed to add 3 villages to Kruje/Arber, I haven't found any medieval villages, on the old maps.
It says only Kruje, and there is a large empty area around it.
So, we ''cheated'' a bit.
I looked at the current, modern map of Albania and included the 3 villages from the vicinity of Kruje.
So, if you two - Black_Scythe and Arisaka - have knowledge about some real medieval villages around Kruje (that have maybe been mentioned in some charter or something), please, tell us, and we will rename them.
 
Its very hard to find any documents with village names around Kruje. But i will try to find something maybe i can find anything in a book. Im not ignorant but cuold you also change the Religion to Catholic in northern albania in the next release since its not historical right at the moment?
 
Arisaka93 said:
Its very hard to find any documents with village names around Kruje. But i will try to find something maybe i can find anything in a book. Im not ignorant but cuold you also change the Religion to Catholic in northern albania in the next release since its not historical right at the moment?
Yes, it's no problem - we will fix it.
But don't let it bother you much, since religion doesn't do anything yet (it is planned for the future releases).
By the way, what do you mean by ''Northern Albania'', i.e. what are the exact villages that need to have Catholic religion?
 
With Northern Albania i mean everything albanian you added till now. So if you going to add the rest of balkans with southern albania they were Orthodox. And no i dont really care of religion i just want some correctness :razz:
 
Speaking of which, I did a 1/3 of Arberian research.
And when we needed to add 3 villages to Kruje/Arber, I haven't found any medieval villages, on the old maps.
It says only Kruje, and there is a large empty area around it.
So, we ''cheated'' a bit.
I looked at the current, modern map of Albania and included the 3 villages from the vicinity of Kruje.
So, if you two - Black_Scythe and Arisaka - have knowledge about some real medieval villages around Kruje (that have maybe been mentioned in some charter or something), please, tell us, and we will rename them.

Obviously, Gjyra man, come on!  :mrgreen: No really, i cant find any sources other than Wiki, and it doesn't have a citenote, but i can remember from when i was in elementary school that Nderfandina must have been the economic center, smth more of a town, while Kruje was the Capital and smth more of a castle. Turning one of the villages into a castle, and renaming it into Krujë while, renaming Kruje to Nderfandina, would be more accurate. Other than that, we also wouldn't have to wait until were strong enough to conquer a castle to gain access to pro troops :smile:
 
Hey i did some changes of the Banner by myself look

mbwar_20120918_172741.png

Seems like this looks cool and kinda historically :razz:

If you guys want to add it in next release i can send it to you.

btw if i need a permission to edit your files please say me quick and i remove it again.
 
Black_Scythe said:
Obviously, Gjyra man, come on! :mrgreen:
Why? Are you from a village next to Gjyra?
Do you have some centuries old rivalry with them?
Did some of Gjyrans stole a cow from your village, 200 years ago?
Speak, man! :lol:

No really, i cant find any sources other than Wiki, and it doesn't have a citenote, but i can remember from when i was in elementary school that Nderfandina must have been the economic center, smth more of a town, while Kruje was the Capital and smth more of a castle. Turning one of the villages into a castle, and renaming it into Krujë while, renaming Kruje to Nderfandina, would be more accurate. Other than that, we also wouldn't have to wait until were strong enough to conquer a castle to gain access to pro troops :smile:
Well, we can't promise anything, because, our mod is very strict about what qualifies as a town.
That's why, you'll see some factions (Bosnia, Wales) that have no towns at all.
When I was researching Bosnia, I knew that they had castles, trading centers, and what not, but that doesn't automatically qualifies them as towns.
As for Arber, I think they have always been planned as a city-state/micronation.
If I recall correctly, we were even undecided as whether Kruje should be a town, or a castle, because of our ''what qualifies as a town'' rules.
So, basically, we have put Kruje as a town, just because it was supposed to be the only Arberian settlement (aside from villages). If we are to put one more big settlement, then the decision to include Kruje as a town would be meaningless.

As for Nderfandina, I would like to include it, but as a village (maybe instead of Gjyra? :mrgreen:).
Because, the trade centers on Balkans didn't have to be towns, per se.
In fact, it seems (according to my knowledge) that most trade centers of the Mid-Western Balkans weren't a big cities, with walls and towers, but in fact, were more like very big villages, called squares.
Squares were not villages, nor towns, they were simply a very, very large trading centers, bult on a plain, and were the centres of economy.

However, I will not speak more on that subject, because I am a Serb (which automatically makes me 10 times more epic, but whatever :wink:), and I don't want for people to think that I am stopping the expansion of Arber on purpose.
So I will leave everything to Korinov, if he wants something to say, or change.

Arisaka93 said:
Hey i did some changes of the Banner by myself look
mbwar_20120918_172741.png
Seems like this looks cool and kinda historically :razz:
If you guys want to add it in next release i can send it to you.
btw if i need a permission to edit your files please say me quick and i remove it again.
It still look funny to me (no offence). :razz:
Your colouring is OK, but the basic shape is still bad.
Btw, do you (or Scythe) have any other picture of that eagle?
A symbol found on some church, or a stone plate, or book?
For example, here are 2 random pics of Serbian medieval eagles:
labatistojnicgp3.jpg

Sv.despot%20Stefan-ktitor.JPG
And if you look at some of those Eagles closely, you will see that they are the same as the current Eagle in our mod, in the game.
So, can you find something like that, only with Albanian eagle?
I just want to know from where does this flag comes from.
I mean, the artist who made that modern rendition must have had some historical source.
Because, if the artist made that on his own - then it's just a bad art.
But if he made it using some historical source, then it is OK.
(But seriously, no offence, to me it still looks like some chicken, ready to be plucked. :mrgreen:)
 
Why? Are you from a village next to Gjyra?
Do you have some centuries old rivalry with them?
Did some of Gjyrans stole a cow from your village, 200 years ago?
Speak, man! :lol:

Actually I am from Peja, Pec in this mod, a village of Ras  :mrgreen: My family was better at leading armies then sheep, though i'm not proud of that. There's something extremely stoic in being a shepherd and robbing foreign pass-Byers in Cursed Mountains. So no feud with Gjyra but, where the fcuk did you find that village! I bet even the villagers themselves dont know their place is called Gjyra! But Gjyra is not the only problem, i will look on history books and try to find the names for the other two villages, and if there werent you can take one village of, as well as one lord.  :sad:

In fact, it seems (according to my knowledge) that most trade centers of the Mid-Western Balkans weren't a big cities, with walls and towers, but in fact, were more like very big villages, called squares.

You mean, that which you call Varos in your language? We didnt have that kind of stuff. We did manly stuff for a living like fight, loot and rob, we didn't trade :wink:

It still look funny to me (no offence).

Which is great when you consider it grew up to be the most beautiful flag of modern days! I will be able to find the picture of the carving which set the basis for this Arber flag. Goddamn Christians and Muslims bringing us their flags and symbols. My ancestors were totally fine with a snake, a sun, and a few Gods.

Anyways, after my exam term ends, i can do some research on my dad's library, and I'll translate anything we need. Theres a lot of stuff about Byzantines, Serbs and Bulgarians as well. Just let me know what you guys need.
 
I am begging MihailoSRB and Black_Scythe not accidentally insult each others nationalities as you know there is going to be third person that is going to insult after the initial insult (and it goes on, and on, and on)
 
ZnasVecKo said:
I am begging MihailoSRB and Black_Scythe not accidentally insult each others nationalities as you know there is going to be third person that is going to insult after the initial insult (and it goes on, and on, and on)

Ohladi, nece se desiti  :wink:
 
Hey guys - I don't mind about the flag for Arber using a proper eagle or your special bird too much. So if there is a big majority to use the (no offense!) well kind of a chicken: I am totaly O.K. with that. I want you to consider though that that sign is a carving in a stone somewhere (at least that's what I think to remember to have read about it in a Wikipedia article - so who knows if that's true?). That means it's no Coat of arms. It's just a sign - maybe a charge - an icon - a carving. Heraldry was meant to make combatants more specifiable in battle because of all the armour. It usually should have followed special criterias such as being easy reconisable and with two or three different colours if it has a charge (animal / weapon etc.). So that combination of the carved bird with blue background is a compromise. But consider as well that that sign was done by some bad or no artist/craftsman, maybe even a kid. Someone might have tried to express an eagle/ a falcon or maybe even a chicken. All the signs like beasts or weapons have changed a lot through history, they also were following a fashion. I see that this special bird seems to be very important to you, as it seems to be a very important icon for Albanian history - at least in Albania. But honestly I think that there must have been a better version of the Arber bird. As I said we were trying to represent the Progon's family COA because of all these circumstances.
Sorry for a long post!
 
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