Once and for all let's get workshops done

[RobIsTheMessiah]

- Way to give your workshops source materials you yourself purchased at a low price

This is kind of possible in a roundabout way. Your margins will improve if you buy cheap materials elsewhere and then sell them to your city, lowering the price for your workshop supplies.

 

[Olympeus]

14,081 - 12,725 = 1,356

Sorry, I could have been more clear. If the parties are not earning money then they are draining money. So if you choose to focus solely on passive income (vs. battle loot + passive income) you will have to consider party wages as an additional expense.

What's a reasonable amount of party wages for 3 or 4 parties? I have no idea, but let's say 400-500 each.

14,081 -12,725 - 1,600 = -244.

One can just dissolve the extra parties and then your income is positive again. So to be fair, if we remove the battle loot income we can also remove the party expense and and the income is still positive. His example above still shows a positive income if the parties are dissolved.

You can actually get by with nothing but militia for garrison purposes once you have a decent amount (governors help here!) in a high-prosperity town. That means holding a prosperous town is doubly lucrative -- not only is the base tax income higher, but you get it defended for free as well.

Once you take a fief it has 0 militia and 0 garrison. So it doesn't seem practical to get by with militia only until there is a militia. In the meantime, you have to house a garrison. And for Settlements that are on the border of your Kingdom I would not rely soley on militia even if enough time had passed to accumulate 300+ militia. The Aserai will walk in there with a 1200+ army while you are on the other corner of Calradia fighting another war and take your settlement. Leave a garrison of 200 and they will find a softer target, probably one that belongs to Nicasor since he is incapable of garrisoning his fiefs. Then you can retake the fief and give it to a clan that is worthy.

Because I'm almost always at war. When you can count on your parties to always be battling then battle loot is passive, is it not?

If you count war loot as part of your passive income strategy that's perfectly fine, it's just not what I expected and I don't personally count war loot as passive income. I consider passive income something you collect regardless of what actions you take on any given day (much like the real-world).

I've seen a lot of folks indicate they are having trouble with maintaining a positive income. Most of these troubles seem to involve an alternate play style where one is not constantly at war.

I have not read your guide, but the areas people probably find most helpful is making money outside of war to support an alternate play style.

For making money regardless of play style, I think the best singular advice for income (other than smithing) is:

• Step 1: collect your parties and go to war
• Step 2: repeat step 1.

Your screenshot is an example of this, and my experiences have been the same. This advice is simple, effective, and allows the player to ignore the in-game economy and all other income mechanics if they choose to.

Edit: I'm not sure where you're getting a negative number from either. Income added together without the parties is 3,924, minus 2,568 for expenses is 1,356. Lean garrisons are part of my strategy as well, if you didn't read my linked post; I've never lost a fief even with those tiny garrisons because of my war strategy.

I clarified above. If the parties are dissolved your income is still positive.

Lean garrisons are part of my strategy as well, if you didn't read my linked post; I've never lost a fief even with those tiny garrisons because of my war strategy.

Very nice, I'll go read your post to see how you use lean garrisons. I have some other notions that I mention above so it will be good to learn a new tactic.

 

[Apocal]

I think it has gone slightly off topic, as the ability to make some money from passive income in other ways, doesn't really change the fact that the workshops are almost pointless. At the current income they need to drop the purchase price of the workshops dramatically for them to be worth it, I think. However, I would rather see them flesh the workshops out more.

- More income from workshops
- Way to give your workshops source materials you yourself purchased at a low price
- Some way to improve workshops
- A way to assign an NPC companion/clan member to run the workshop. Ability to improve the workshop could be based on smithing skill. Currently there is no point for an NPC to have smithing skill, but this would give one.

I'm making ~200 on most of my workshops. With four of them that's enough to support a powerful-enough party to beat almost any lord with minimal losses or a ruler party/small army with moderate losses.

 

[RobIsTheMessiah]

Once you take a fief it has 0 militia and 0 garrison. So it doesn't seem practical to get by with militia only until there is a militia. In the meantime, you have to house a garrison. And for Settlements that are on the border of your Kingdom I would not rely soley on militia even if enough time had passed to accumulate 300+ militia. The Aserai will walk in there with a 1200+ army while you are on the other corner of Calradia fighting another war and take your settlement. Leave a garrison of 200 and they will find a softer target, probably one that belongs to Nicasor since he is incapable of garrisoning his fiefs. Then you can retake the fief and give it to a clan that is worthy.

I've never had this problem. To be fair though another part of my tactics involves a good bit of a) leaving buffers between fiefs I don't want to lose and my front line, b) patrolling my own and the surrounding land, and c) making peace with anyone that is actually starting to be a real threat. I can see how your mileage might vary here, but I personally have never had an issue with waiting for militia to be recruited.

I've seen a lot of folks indicate they are having trouble with maintaining a positive income. Most of these troubles seem to involve an alternate play style where one is not constantly at war.

This is a valid point, but to these people I would say... cut your expenses. If your goal is to rule a kingdom or even just your own slice of one it's going to take awhile, especially if you're not going to maintain a military presence. Keep enough party members to outrun other parties and that's it. Of course you're not going to be able to field a massive party or a large garrison from passive income alone from workshops and caravans. Going that route means you need to focus on getting prosperity high in cities you put your workshops (doing quests for Notables, making sure they have good supplies in their store), making sure trade routes between your chosen city and other nearby locations are free of riff raff, trading from city to city until you can buy fiefs... if you're not going to engage in combat you don't need to pay for the equipment for combat, you know? Keep your overhead low.

All good points though and I do agree that workshops need some love. What always keeps me positive and confident is the roadmap on the Steam store that very clearly states that almost no near features will be added, but that the major systems already present will be getting redone and polished.

 

[NLCRich]

I'm making ~200 on most of my workshops. With four of them that's enough to support a powerful-enough party to beat almost any lord with minimal losses or a ruler party/small army with moderate losses.

My party alone costs me over 3000 each day. I'm not going to go into the other money I'm paying out, but workshops do not come close to paying for a sizeable army. You can say "oh you need to keep lower tier troops", but that is ridiculous to expect to sit on upgradeable troops and allow them to be worse than they could be. That said, I don't have any problems making money. I make a lot of money via diplomacy. I'm not saying one can't make money. I'm saying the workshops are just not worth it enough. There is no reason to pay out all that money to get them with the income they provide.

 

[RobIsTheMessiah]

My party alone costs me over 3000 each day. I'm not going to go into the other money I'm paying out, but workshops do not come close to paying for a sizeable army. You can say "oh you need to keep lower tier troops", but that is ridiculous to expect to sit on upgradeable troops and allow them to be worse than they could be. That said, I don't have any problems making money. I make a lot of money via diplomacy. I'm not saying one can't make money. I'm saying the workshops are just not worth it enough. There is no reason to pay out all that money to get them with the income they provide.

I think workshops would be worth it if you're only doing non-combat things and staying neutral in the conflicts. I know you already mentioned lower tier troops, but, well... what does a merchant need 60 Fian Champions for? lol

 

[Apocal]

My party alone costs me over 3000 each day. I'm not going to go into the other money I'm paying out, but workshops do not come close to paying for a sizeable army. You can say "oh you need to keep lower tier troops", but that is ridiculous to expect to sit on upgradeable troops and allow them to be worse than they could be.

3000 per day? For a single party?

That's over 150 T6 troops or 250 T5 troops. Bro, no **** workshops aren't anything to you. That party is enough to literally solo-siege well-garrisoned towns. You should be well beyond the point at which you even give a damn about money in general.

 

[MostBlunted]

For making money regardless of play style, I think the best singular advice for income (other than smithing) is:

• Step 1: collect your parties and go to war
• Step 2: repeat step 1.

+1

But I agree with everything you said but didn´t want to quote all of it.

 

[NLCRich]

3000 per day? For a single party?

That's over 150 T6 troops or 250 T5 troops. Bro, no **** workshops aren't anything to you. That party is enough to literally solo-siege well-garrisoned towns. You should be well beyond the point at which you even give a damn about money in general.

Yea my party is 280 strong, with a little help from kingdom policy that boosts leaders troop capacity. I'm not saying they should pay for my whole army. Obviously there are other types of income. However, for the money they cost it is difficult to get them in the early game where they can actually help, and it takes a long time to see that return. Then by the time you get to where I am where buying a workshop is not much of your money, the income you get from them doesn't have that much effect. When you can get so much more from battles on the map or even a simple quest, I don't see the incentive for the player to make use of this mechanic.

 

[eddiemccandless]

They really have killed the merchant playing style over time. Which is a shame, because it was my favorite way to play right after release and actually had some depth to it. Right now it is technically doable, but compared to just amassing Khuzait and killing things... Well if you go with trading you are just gimping yourself, feels like.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Yea my party is 280 strong, with a little help from kingdom policy that boosts leaders troop capacity. I'm not saying they should pay for my whole army. Obviously there are other types of income. However, for the money they cost it is difficult to get them in the early game where they can actually help, and it takes a long time to see that return. Then by the time you get to where I am where buying a workshop is not much of your money, the income you get from them doesn't have that much effect. When you can get so much more from battles on the map or even a simple quest, I don't see the incentive for the player to make use of this mechanic.

It takes about 75 - 150 days (1-2 years) for them to pay themselves off, with a caravan that can range from 15 - 150 days (1 season - 2 year). I know that can feel like a long time, but in the grand scheme of things its not too much of a difference. I'd be interested to see total profit over the lifetime of a caravan or workshop. That would settle the debate in my head, because i have a feeling long term the workshop is better (if placed appropriately)

 

[Olympeus]

I've never had this problem. To be fair though another part of my tactics involves a good bit of a) leaving buffers between fiefs I don't want to lose and my front line, b) patrolling my own and the surrounding land, and c) making peace with anyone that is actually starting to be a real threat. I can see how your mileage might vary here, but I personally have never had an issue with waiting for militia to be recruited.



This is a valid point, but to these people I would say... cut your expenses. If your goal is to rule a kingdom or even just your own slice of one it's going to take awhile, especially if you're not going to maintain a military presence. Keep enough party members to outrun other parties and that's it. Of course you're not going to be able to field a massive party or a large garrison from passive income alone from workshops and caravans. Going that route means you need to focus on getting prosperity high in cities you put your workshops (doing quests for Notables, making sure they have good supplies in their store), making sure trade routes between your chosen city and other nearby locations are free of riff raff, trading from city to city until you can buy fiefs... if you're not going to engage in combat you don't need to pay for the equipment for combat, you know? Keep your overhead low.

All good points though and I do agree that workshops need some love. What always keeps me positive and confident is the roadmap on the Steam store that very clearly states that almost no near features will be added, but that the major systems already present will be getting redone and polished.

Word. Solid advice

 

[AfLIcTeD]

I'm making ~200 on most of my workshops. With four of them that's enough to support a powerful-enough party to beat almost any lord with minimal losses or a ruler party/small army with moderate losses.

200 a day seems reasonable. The thing is though nearly every workshop I have tried barely scrape 100 a day. With how much they cost and the possibility to lose them during war, they are not worth it. Nobody is asking to be carried by workshops alone, they are asking for workshops to be worth it.

Defeating 5 looters and selling them and their equipment provides more income than two workshops.

 

[TheShermanator]

FWIW, I just came back to the game after taking a break in May 2020 - so my expectations are a time capsule for about 1.4 or so. And yes - passive income from workshops is way worse now. I'm pretty sure it's not worth doing: income ranges from 0 to 100 per day with the appropriate local village supply chains. Plus, there's the non-zero risk of losing the whole workhop to shifting alliances.

In general, it seems like passive income is just not even worth it anymore given the opportunity cost vs. active income from battle loot. If you spend any game time / attention on passive income, that same time could have been used to farm loot / prisoners from enemy parties of equal or lesser strength, which seems to yield much better ROI (if "I" = troop quality and game time).

 

[stevehoos]

Tanneries are broken in 1.5.2. Not sure if this is a bug in prior versions as well.

 

[nyarlathotep1975]

Tanneries are broken in 1.5.2. Not sure if this is a bug in prior versions as well.

What do you mean by "broken"? To me Tanneries are useless as Potteries, Woodworkshops or anything else that was once too good and got nerfed into the ground.

 

[stevehoos]

What do you mean by "broken"? To me Tanneries are useless as Potteries, Woodworkshops or anything else that was once too good and got nerfed into the ground.

Because they don't make any gold at all, zero no matter where you buy them.

 

[thefinn]

tbh I was hoping for much much more from this game in terms of economy. It's been a disappointment.

Was hoping lords could say what villages produced and maybe put some kind of workshops in the village, then have knock-on effects from there to towns. Instead, I think it got even further dumbed-down.

And to have workshops effect the kinds of troops that could be made in a town - and the requirement to be in town to upgrade and make troops. There's no real economy at this point, because iron ore doesn't get made into weapons.

Anyhow, yeah not enough gold from the workshops as they are...

 

[ElCrisp]

Nobody is asking to be carried by workshops alone, they are asking for workshops to be worth it.

Really seem to me like a substantial amount of people are asking for exactly this. Which is really silly IMO because trying to earn enough money to get by is a central part of the gameplay loop, like if you are sick of the things needed to make money in this game you might just be sick of the game period. Which I get we are all waiting on the feature to fill out.

You can still get workshops with incomes ranging from 200-300 a day.which I think is very reasonable.

There is however problems with workshops that relate to how goods are demanded and prosperity growth. The reason workshops are only strong in towns with higher prosperity is because demand for certain goods classed as luxuries is determined by towns being prosperous, it isnt a linear scale though, as after a certain amount of prosperity the demand for luxury good grows more quickly, which I think is cool it just need fine tuning.
Leather seems to have particular problems as the raw materials are in higher demand than the processed good especially late game, when generally prosperity should be higher.
So workshops are connected deeply into other systems and as such they are not simply "buffing them" but trying to get those system working togethers as they should.

Passive income is very strong, and given the lack of gold sinks it makes sense they are conservitive with it.
Take some simple math examples of how income effects wealth.

Say your total expenses are 9 a day
and your income is 10 a day from loot and bandits (averaged over a week, some day you make say 0 some days 30 )
10 - 9 = 1 profit a day
Over a 10 day period your wealth accumulated is 10

Now lets take the same example but add passive income
Expenses are 9 a day
you average income from loot and plunder is 10 a day
you also have a passive income from workshops of 5 a day
10+5 - 9 = 6 profit a day
Over a ten day period your wealth accumulated is 60

So even though your average income increased by only 50% your wealth accumulated inceased by 600%
There are very few sinks for wealth in this game, so very soon after going positive on daily expenses you move towards infinite money $$$$$$$$$$$$.

Place them right and workshops are really good you guys just suck I rest my case your honour.

 

[AfLIcTeD]

Put them in the right town, put them in the wrong town it doesn't matter, 99% of workshops suck. There are maybe 1 or 2 specific shops in a specific town that may provide more profit. A smithy in Marunath is one of them. The rest are useless. A winery in Quyaz or Charas or any other town that has a supply of grapes. Good luck getting over 50 a day. A velvet weavery in Amprela. Again good luck getting over 100 a day.
Now I don't know if it is the workshops themselves or if it is the market but whatever the reason is it needs fixing.