ON HOLD - Pike & Blade Merged v3.3.2 (Needs to be updated to 1.143/DP 4.1)

[Onasaki]

You know, I only pop on here every once in a while. And personally, I think I like the idea of expanding the Nord tree. People are right, it's mainly just axes axes and more axes. Nords were EXTREMELY great strategists, and people never give them the credit they deserve because most of history has depicted them as bloodthirsty axe-wielding pirates.

I'm not entirely sure what this update is for, though, or else I'd give it a whirl. I'm too lazy to read weeks of backlog.

 

[imgran]

My main problem with the Nord tree was that it was a bit of a one-trick pony - axes, axes and more axes - which wasn't really either practical or culturally convincing.

lol I know, I wasn't suffering from a surfeit of creativity when it came to the Nords, I admit.  I've spent most of my time playtesting the Swadians so they don't get too badly steamrolled in the early game.  I will develop the concepts I've gotten with all the nations, but the early work was very quick-and-dirty, it will take awhile for this to be a refined mod.  I released it not because I thought things were well developed and ready, but more because I felt it was time for more ideas than just mine to begin driving the thing.

EDIT: Oops, one last thing I forgot. Part of the issue facing down cavalry was the horse stats; I assume you already know, and have a reason, but you've got native horses rather than Aeon's P&B versions which makes an immense difference.

Aeon edited horses to make them faster and less armored than Native.  Right now the mod uses the Native values.  It wouldn't be that hard to restore Aeon's numbers to the new mod.

BTW I'd welcome someone's perspective on whether the Rhodoks are a bit overeffective.  For some reason I can't handle 'em lol.

 

[Kogara]

Spoiler

I'm sorry I missed your request for ideas and the update, I'll give it a whirl and get back to you.

I've also got even more respect for what you've pulled off after spending nearly all day trying to implement the force_weapon script into P&B+Diplomacy+PBOD. I swear, my attempts at module system editing are driving me mad.


On the topic of ideas for the Nord tree, I actually spent most of yesterday evening researching the Anglo-Saxon professional and semi-professional soldiers the troops are named after. I've got equipment lists for most of the troops based on second-hand interpretation of historical texts which you're welcome to if it interests you at all.

My main problem with the Nord tree was that it was a bit of a one-trick pony - axes, axes and more axes - which wasn't really either practical or culturally convincing. Thrown weapons were typically "javelins" (though the term then meant something more like the war darts in game) and the main weapon carried by all fyrdmen was a spear, maybe with a sword as a side-arm.

Huscarls (and, I think we can assume for this purpose, Thegns) might have had a spear but certainly weren't required to, as were the fyrdmen. They were expected to own a sword (a very fine sword, according to the texts - something about hilts inlaid with gold) and shield, in addition to their mail and helm, but the weapon they were known for was a 2-handed axe. The information I found also specified them as the ones known to carry the javelins.

The men making up the armies all seemed to be expected to have a horse but only for the purposes of travelling, not for fighting upon.

There aren't really any historical troops I found mentioned as skirmishers but lithsmen and butsecarls were talked about as specialist ship's crews who were often hired as mercenaries. It seems they didn't fight literally at sea but would almost always drive their enemies to the shore and fight there. Given that they spent most of their time aboard boats it seems likely they'd wear armour that wouldn't drag them immediately to the bottom, should they fall overboard, and carry a decent supply of bows or javelins to harry opponents which makes them a reasonable point of inspiration for the skirmisher line.

There was also a brief mention of the sort of weapons used by townspeople forced to defend their homes (a good start for the recruits) but the list is, unsurprisingly, just tools of their trades pressed into service as weapons; hunting spears, hunting bows, wood axes, knives etc.

Sorry for going on at such length, I'll get back to you about the adjustments.

EDIT: Oops, one last thing I forgot. Part of the issue facing down cavalry was the horse stats; I assume you already know, and have a reason, but you've got native horses rather than Aeon's P&B versions which makes an immense difference.

Respect for the detailed historically sourced post....lol.

Also, while I still haven't managed to test this yet....I will note that the horses, should be Aeon stats....I say this because to me, Native horses are just wrong by comparison. But, do what you like , thats just my opinion.

 

[imgran]

Will look into it after the Bruins game lol.

 

[Thorberg]

Respect for the detailed historically sourced post....lol.

I know it's all very fuzzy, thanks. I wasn't trying to create a historically perfect list, just gather a few ideas for my own, personal use. It wouldn't have made it anywhere near the forum except that imgran asked if I had any ideas 

Aeon edited horses to make them faster and less armored than Native.  Right now the mod uses the Native values.  It wouldn't be that hard to restore Aeon's numbers to the new mod.

The changes were actually pretty varied and constituted a colossal nerf without totally ruining the Khergits. I think it's probably safe to say most of us who play P&B think the native horses are quite seriously overpowered.

BTW I'd welcome someone's perspective on whether the Rhodoks are a bit overeffective.  For some reason I can't handle 'em lol.

I'm afraid I've not fought against the Rhodoks yet but I'll get back to you when I can. I'm still trying to gather companions and stabilise my finances.

EDIT: Eugh, I forgot in all the replies to mention that, as far as I've been able to try it out, I like the changes you made, imgran. Skirmishers are no longer shock troops but true skirmishers again, and the Fyrdman line works very nicely with the spears; again, a more solidly defined role. Cavalry are still trouble, as they should be really, but it's not the abject massacre it would've been before.

 

[imgran]

Made enough changes that I'm releasing a new version.  This includes the Nord tweaks I gave to Thorberg and an attempt to make the horses more Pike and Blade-y.  Horses should be the slower and less well armored critters you knew and loved from Pike and Blade, except for steppe horses which are very boosted but correspondingly more expensive.  I've still got the Khergits mostly on coursers because I didn't remember to make that fix before compiling and uploading though.

Another thing you're going to encounter is many, many more bandits.  You'll have to put your maneuvering skills to the test in the early going, I basically got sick of having to comb the map for the things and it's my mod, so I don't have to if I don't want to.  .

There's still some things I'm not satisfied with about the current setup.  I don't like everything Bismark put into his NMC-full.  Mostly the loyalty change in villages which hurts Recruiters, and is there to accomodate the custom troops which I'm ambivalent to.

Still contemplating going back to NMC-Lite, working PBOD in, and finding a way to nerf the Rangers.  It's a better program for the Diplomacy mod lovers because it's closer to what that mod was going for..

 

[imgran]

Pike and Blade Reboot v. 1.1

 

[Thorberg]

Sweet, I'll start playing the new version on monday and get back to you. It'll be nice to give the new (or old?  ) horses a look, though I do hope I haven't pushed you into changing the Nords to be too effective anti-cav with the stat changes in. I really like the idea of more bandits aswell; there was a horrendous shortage of them a month in to the campaign, I was lucky to find a single band in a full-circumference trade route and I'd only found three camps since I started playing.

Also, since I'm not sure I've remembered to say it in amongst all nitpicking, I really like the direction you're going with this. Some of the tweaks in NMC are really nice to have combined with P&B inspired troops and I really appreciate all the work you've put in.

BTW I'd welcome someone's perspective on whether the Rhodoks are a bit overeffective.  For some reason I can't handle 'em lol.

Shall I start a campaign with them and let you know, or would you rather hear what they're like to face?

Still contemplating going back to NMC-Lite, working PBOD in, and finding a way to nerf the Rangers.  It's a better program for the Diplomacy mod lovers because it's closer to what that mod was going for..

It's no use to you at the moment, what with being under constant development and not having the source released, but the Mercantilism Mod might make a good base when it's wrapped up.

 

[imgran]

Shall I start a campaign with them and let you know, or would you rather hear what they're like to face?

The latter.  My fear is that loading them with poleaxes might be too much offensive power to combine with their shields and armor -- I might need to nerf the armor in particular.

It's no use to you at the moment, what with being under constant development and not having the source released, but the Mercantilism Mod might make a good base when it's wrapped up.

I'll probably stick with an NMC-core for now.

BTW I'm testing a script edit that will kill the village loyalty change.  That should put paid to custom troops as well, although I can think of several was that it won't (including using garrison recruiting).

 

[imgran]

I think I might actually have gotten that code Thorberg was talking about working properly.  All the Rhodoks had their shield and their scythe and their mace and their pick anyway.  Will be uploading a new version of the mod in the next couple days so you can all test it.

Yes all of you, all you people who I'm talking to myself, bah.

 

[Thorberg]

I'm afraid I've been too busy to actually do much testing this week. I'll try to find some time after the weekend but I'm gonna be pretty swamped for the foreseeable future 

Congratulations for getting the code working, though. What little free time I have had has been eaten up trying to figure out how to make that work; learning by trial-and-error is all well and good but you can't learn until you actually get it to run.

EDIT: Oh yeah, did putting the script call after the banner stuff preserve all the heraldic items?

 

[Kogara]

Hey Imgran, check thread name and "NEWSFLASH" section . Hope this helps.

 

[imgran]

I'm afraid I've been too busy to actually do much testing this week. I'll try to find some time after the weekend but I'm gonna be pretty swamped for the foreseeable future 

Congratulations for getting the code working, though. What little free time I have had has been eaten up trying to figure out how to make that work; learning by trial-and-error is all well and good but you can't learn until you actually get it to run.

EDIT: Oh yeah, did putting the script call after the banner stuff preserve all the heraldic items?

It didn't seem to disrupt a thing, heraldic mail does everything it always did, so does the banner stuff w/shields.  I guess the order we do things in Python does matter after all.

 

[imgran]

Pike and Blade Reboot v. 1.11

If this version works, I'm gonna call it good unless there's something specific to be worked on.

Other than the codefix, I also altered the equipsets of the Vaegirs and Swadians making them more pike-dense.

Here's the thing I wish I could do to top this off:

Determine whether the enemy is predominately Infantry, Cavalry or Archers, and order the infantry to use their weapons as appropriate -- for mostly Cavalry, switch to polearms, for an Archer-heavy group force shields, against Infantry, use best weapon.  It seems like it should be doable but it will take some figuring.  If I ever get that down, that'll be the next update I make unless there's an obvious balance problem (or I solve the issue here the pre-battle options "charge" "stand" and "lead" all result in the soldiers taking the "hold" position).

 

[imgran]

The three things that will provoke a v1.2:

1: An updated version of NMC Full that solved a couple PBOD-related problems.

2: the forementioned fix for pre-battle orders

3: An urgent balance problem.

I'll release a v1.12 if I can fix the troop tree image.

 

[possum]

would be great if you could post a complete changelog with all changes you have done.

 

[Kogara]

would be great if you could post a complete changelog with all changes you have done.

Probably tedious, but seconded.

 

[imgran]

Not much to say.

I started with an NMC-Full core set which basically added Custom Commander and PBOD to the P&B&D build, and added one bit of code thrown in that makes sure a soldier issued a sword, shield, mace and spear will not always show up on the battlefield missing at least one of the above.

The troop tree came about when it became obvious that the old Pike and Blade tree wouldn't translate ideally thanks to some changes made to item_kinds.txt to accomodate Custom Commander.  Faced with the prospect of having to reenter all the equipment by hand anyway, I decided to reimagine the build based on Aeon's original concepts rather than slavishly recreating it. 

Some of my ideas work, some of them don't, so the rest of this reboot has been hashing out what does and does not work with the troop tree.  Example:  Swadia is now the Big Bad thanks to an absurd number of Knights, and the Vaegirs are kinda pushovers, so I have some work to do to rectify that.  I'm also looking through the Forge for ideas that I can add to the build without conflicting with anything already there, so if you see an idea let me know.

 

[Kogara]

*creeeeep*....

 

[imgran]

*peeks in*

Thought you ought to know, I'm working on a fix for the Sarranids always allying with the Swadians.  I think I have a solution that won't leave the Swadians completely isolated or screw the Rhodoks over.

The problem is that whoever put the alliance system together didn't realize that the Swadians share a border with the Sarranids -- which they do, via Weeyah and Reindi Castles. The Sarranids have every reason to want to get in on the smorgasbord as soon as the Swadians show any weakness but the engine was not replicating that at all.

Between the two they cut the Rhodoks off completely, which makes their situation worse than it should be strategically -- because they don't have border rivalries between Sarranid and Swadian to give them a breather.  So I'm going to create a border clash where the Sarranids want Reindi Castle, and balance that by the Vaegirs being more interested in carrying on a war with the Nords or Khergits than taking Tilbaut Castle from the Swads.  According to the mythos, the Vaegirs used to rule the lands captired by those two nations and have much less interest in expanding into Swadia unless it's particularly juicy.

A more or less continuous alliance between Vaegir and Swad is nearly as annoying if you happen to be Nordish, but at least the Swads themselves will be an island in a sea of war like they pretty much need to be.  And the Vaegirs are surrounded on both sides by war themselves, unlike the Sarranids who really only have 2 neighbors to deal with.

I've also rebalanced the units a bit because the Vaegirs were left behind.  THe Vaegir Ranger is now what it used to be in my old troop tree -- seriously scary heavily armored archer that you can NOT count as dead just because you've closed with them.  I've also given the Vaegirs a seriously annoying light cavalry, the Vaegir Slavecatcher -- a lightly armored fast mace wielding mounted crossbowman who is easy to kill assuming you can catch him.  Will upload as soon as it compiles.