Modding Philosophy

[ms_ts_2007]

Let me start by stating that I am not in any way, shape of form an experience modder.

But, considering that you can judge an egg even if you didn't laid it yourself, I humbly propose this topic of conversation. But before that, another caveat, maybe this comes too late in the age of this game, I sincerly hope that WARBAND modding as a whole is still alive and kicking.

Having said that, let's begin.

I've noticed some trends with the huge collection of mods that are out there.

1. The "I want to make my own mod" Mods  - Usually, this is a mod released by a single person, that had a great ideea for a mod, undertook it entirely upon himself, and took it to different stages of developement. There are some great mods of this type, don't get me wrong, but the majority of them are just an monument of an untold number of wasted hours.

2. The "OSP bits and pieces" - The creators of these bits and pieces understood that modding is a cyclopean task, and focused their attention to certain aspects of modding, like new scenes, new scripts, new weapons. Their creations have a higher value for the good of the game as a whole, but unfortunately led to the next category in my list...

3. The "I want to make my my own mod, but I am lazy... Look, OSPs !" Mods - In this category are the mods that bring nothing new, they are just a mish-mash of the OSPs mentioned before, without any sense of porpose. Again, some good mods, or rather, compilations, have come out using this method, but they are few and far between.

4. The "Made by a dedicated team" Mods... These, in my humble opinion, is the category with the higher rate of succesfull releases.

Out of these categories, we can extrapolate certain trends of modding philosophy. What is yours ? Do you have a clear view of what your mod is going to be ? Or do you guys play it by the ear ?

What is the most common trend in modding philosophy ? Do you take the "download the bare-bone module system and add to it" approach ?

 

[Adorno]

You seem not only to pretend to know what modders think,
but also to rank mods of various type which can't be compared;
like an OSP being inferior to mods by dedicated teams. It makes no sense.
I also generally disagree with most of this...

 

[Caba`drin]

At the very least, if we're going with caricatures of all types of modding (besides a mythical insular team that does everything without taking part in the community), you missed this 'trend':

0. The .TXT Edit/Costume Mod - made entirely by .txt editing with TweakMB and Morgh's Editor with OSP for new items/troops, or, in some instances, it is made by a dedicated modeller/texturer who provides the new costumes and gear for the reworked troops and item stats. Might have renamed kingdoms, too. And, if you're lucky, a new map.

Though, if we aren't going for a comedic discussion, then I don't know that I contributed correctly.

 

[Cernunos]

but the majority of them are just an monument of an untold number of wasted hours.

FU

 

[xenoargh]

If you want to talk about correlations between outcomes and methods, you need to do real, serious studies of the actual data, based on The Caravanserai, not The Pioneer's Guild. 

Remember, stuff there is, by definition, not even feature-complete, and may at any time suddenly close up shop.

A statistical survey of the outcomes there might be pretty intriguing, but approaching this subject in anything less than a truly scientific fashion is very likely to garner you a great deal more rotten tomatoes than good will

 

[Cozur]

This is not the first time I see the whole "Using OSP projects in your mod is lazy" argument, and I'm struck by how weird it is, each and every time.

No reason to make a new plate armor model if there's already 20-30 of them around.

If we're talking about modding philosophy, I'd like to chip in with a question:

Making mods that take place after, say 1548 in Europe, has always seemed somewhat odd to me due to the whole Mount and Blade gameplay style not really fitting into it, what with fiefs, feudal system and what is basically a hack and slash game (very, very simplistic description on my side).

Does anyone else feel this way?

 

[cmpxchg8b]

Except nobody made that argument: if you read carefully you'll see that he was referring to mods that are basically OSP collections without any added feature.

 

[Mad Vader]

I actually agree with the OP impressions.
The "mods" that start as OSP collections and lack original work, are lazy in the creative department - note that some effort is still needed to integrate the OSPs, so they are not done by (very) lazy people. Even when they succeed in drawing an audience, they do that as comprehensive mod compilations, lacking overall design coherency as a game, looking as a mish-mash of neat tricks and tweaks.
Obvously they are less interesting than total conversions (the only way to go! if you can afford it ), but are still more accessible to people that only want their Native pimped, and don't mind their lackluster Calradia.

As for modding philosophies, people have several:
- The hobbyist: Let me make a few changes, add an OSP or two; I don't want to do this for months or years and I want quick results - if it takes off, I'll do some more of it.
- The hardcore modder/total noob: Let's go all the way! Change EVERYTHING! Risk complete failure!
- The lonely teenager: Let me start a mod thread and maybe people will pay attention to me. *flaming*
- The recruits: Me and my new internet buddies will rock the modding world! One of us can even make a model! Let's go and make banners first. *crickets*
- The lone rider: I don't like people. So I'll do only fancy stuff that interests me. Alone.

Whatever anyone's modding philosophy is, it's the market.. er.. the players that decides what is successful and sets trends for future mod attempts - people tend to be inspired by success.
It seems that there is a split between multiplayer-only mods (easier to do quickly, but more fickle and juvenile audience, prospects of success depend mainly on maintaining a community), and single player mods (need dedicated teams, more hardcore gamers, success depends on the team's ability to persevere and finish). Both types serve almost totally separate player bases, that are mostly unaware of each other's existence.

 

[dunde]

my modding philosophy is curiousity. And to make worth to my wasted hours of learning, coding and testing, I share the code as osp. I believe there are some forum's members that have the same philosophy as mine.

 

[Llew2]

Huh. In general the OP's views are dismissive and offensive.

To say nothing about the several threads on this general topic already;

According to his layout, I would fall into number 1:

1. The "I want to make my own mod" Mods  - Usually, this is a mod released by a single person, that had a great ideea for a mod, undertook it entirely upon himself, and took it to different stages of developement. There are some great mods of this type, don't get me wrong, but the majority of them are just an monument of an untold number of wasted hours.

Which is an insult to the mods that I have created and finished completely by my self. If that's your view, **** off.

MadVader's is much more accurate.

- The lone rider: I don't like people. So I'll do only fancy stuff that interests me. Alone.

That would be me, to a T. (And I might add, people like the OP are responsible for me disliking people in general.)

Oh look, #2 is also particularly offensive to me, since I was the one who orchestrated and encouraged the collection of all the OSP stuff around.

3. The "I want to make my my own mod, but I am lazy... Look, OSPs !" Mods - In this category are the mods that bring nothing new, they are just a mish-mash of the OSPs mentioned before, without any sense of porpose. Again, some good mods, or rather, compilations, have come out using this method, but they are few and far between.

Again, if this is your view, feel free to screw yourself. What you are completely missing is the REAL philosophy behind modding. It's not a damn competition. Most of these so-called 'noobs' are kids with a great idea and some inspiration, just trying to have fun, play with a dream, and share it with other people. That's how the 'hardcore' modders got started. That's how I got started. So unless you are going to be supportive of these people and their dreams and creativity, however fledgling, then you get lost, because you are a detriment to the true spirit of modding.

 

[Cernunos]

Again, if this is your view, feel free to screw yourself. What you are completely missing is the REAL philosophy behind modding. It's not a damn competition. Most of these so-called 'noobs' are kids with a great idea and some inspiration, just trying to have fun, play with a dream, and share it with other people. That's how the 'hardcore' modders got started. That's how I got started. So unless you are going to be supportive of these people and their dreams and creativity, however fledgling, then you get lost, because you are a detriment to the true spirit of modding.

+ 10000000000

 

[The Lich]

As a player of mount and blade and it's mods for 5-6 years, and as a newbie modder, I agree with this completely. There are lots of "not-so-good" mods out there. Well... we can not demand all of them to be revolutionary since they are free. But what do you want me to call "true" as other than true. They lack creativity; therefore can we say they are lazy? Well, I do not know the answer, if the mods or mod developers are lazy; but they are worthless to the player.

In my point of view, a mod (or a game) should not be criticized based on the effort has been made for it. Games (and mods) are for players to have fun (and serve other needs perhaps)

Spoiler

Brytenwalda mod improved my knowledge of britannia history. Another example I can give is the game the witcher introduced me a great story, which is something beyond fun, it was art.

A popular example I can give, is new games with great graphics which has no spirit. Personally I would prefer HoMM 1,2,3,4 over Heroes 6 even if they would be released at the same year. I would not be interested at the amount of work that has been made for the graphics of the 6th game. What I actually try mean is, if I had a chance to make a choice between heroes 3 graphics and heroes 6 graphics for the same game; I would go for heroes 3. Because atmosphere is lost in heroes 6.

1. The "I want to make my own mod" Mods  - Usually, this is a mod released by a single person, that had a great ideea for a mod, undertook it entirely upon himself, and took it to different stages of developement. There are some great mods of this type, don't get me wrong, but the majority of them are just an monument of an untold number of wasted hours.

Well, the only part I can argue is here. But not in a critical way. This is %100 true from the player's perspective (which is the only deciding factor in my opinion, as I explained). But from the developer's perspective this is a bit different. Basicly, this is not a waste of time for the developer as the amount of work can also be counted as a "practice". In fact, this is what I am trying to do for now. As an unexperienced coder and modder, I am trying to make a mini-mod before working on a major-mod. To achieve both success and earn practice.

 

[Slawomir of Aaarrghh]

According to his layout, I would fall into number 1:

1. The "I want to make my own mod" Mods  - Usually, this is a mod released by a single person, that had a great ideea for a mod, undertook it entirely upon himself, and took it to different stages of developement. There are some great mods of this type, don't get me wrong, but the majority of them are just an monument of an untold number of wasted hours.

Which is an insult to the mods that I have created and finished completely by my self. If that's your view, **** off.

I believe you got that part wrong. IMO, ms_ts_2007 was talking about the one-modder-mods, which finally fail and are not released at all or die in some early stage. In this case yeah, they are a "monument of an untold number of wasted hours". He didn't try to insult anyone with this, just point out some obvious stuff - that there are many people, who try to take all on their own, but they lack skill, experience, patience or just free time to finish what they've started. I've seen this happen many times. Bah, my own first mod was a failure because finally there was too many stuff on my head and I lacked free time to close all the doors that I've opened. Some of the hours I've spent on that project were turned into experience, many of them were just lost...

It's not a damn competition.

Wrong. Modding IS competition... at least in some way. Mod is nothing without players playing it. And to get player's attention you need to offer more than others - in quanitity or quality - or add some new, unique stuff. We're all modding games because it gives us fun and we like to share with other people the stuff we create... but we also should cut that crap about modding being an effect of selflessness. It's not. It may feel like that when you're starting your first project (I believe many of us started like this), but after a while it turns to normal competition - you want your work to be better and better, you look at work of other modders and start to compare it to your work... etc.

What's the price for a modder in this competition? Gratitude of players. Every "thank you" or "you did a great job" is just pure gold for us, keeps us going and motivates us to work even harder. On the other hand, every kind of disrespect (but not the constructive criticism!) hurts us very much. You just showed that by your post, so don't try to argue about it. If someone is doing something completely selflessly, then he doesn't give a damn about what others think about him or his work.

 

[Llew2]

I believe you got that part wrong. IMO, ms_ts_2007 was talking about the one-modder-mods, which finally fail and are not released at all or die in some early stage. In this case yeah, they are a "monument of an untold number of wasted hours". He didn't try to insult anyone with this, just point out some obvious stuff - that there are many people, who try to take all on their own, but they lack skill, experience, patience or just free time to finish what they've started. I've seen this happen many times. Bah, my own first mod was a failure because finally there was too many stuff on my head and I lacked free time to close all the doors that I've opened. Some of the hours I've spent on that project were turned into experience, many of them were just lost...

Well, that's not my problem. I was fortunate enough to start out small, and release one or two modifications that tweaked my fancy, before moving on to larger projects.

Wrong. Modding IS competition... at least in some way. Mod is nothing without players playing it. And to get player's attention you need to offer more than others - in quanitity or quality - or add some new, unique stuff. We're all modding games because it gives us fun and we like to share with other people the stuff we create... but we also should cut that crap about modding being an effect of selflessness. It's not. It may feel like that when you're starting your first project (I believe many of us started like this), but after a while it turns to normal competition - you want your work to be better and better, you look at work of other modders and start to compare it to your work... etc.

I was specifically talking about the motivation for starting a mod. Since OP was sticking it to the new modders, I was pointing out how stupid that was.

but we also should cut that crap about modding being an effect of selflessness. It may feel like that when you're starting your first project (I believe many of us started like this)

The one and only reason that I started modding was because I loved the time period. It struck a powerful chord with me. It had nothing to do with with selflessness at all. I made the HYW mod because I wanted to play it myself. Where that developed to in the future is not what I was addressing.

In fact, no where in my post did I hint at selflessness or altruism being the spirit of modding. Actually, the altruism only came into the picture for me after I was a veteran modder, and I saw dickheads discouraging new modders.

No, what I was talking about, the so-called 'spirit of modding', is the modder's own inspiration. Their dream. Their drive. Whatever you want to call it that motivated them to create something new. It's that itch that makes you want to slaughter fields of orcs, that leads you to create a lord of the rings mod. Or have an heroic charge against the French knights, that ends up in a Hundred Years War mod. Usually the motivation is quite romantic.

Sure, it changes. The reasons I mod now are not the same reasons that I started with. In fact, that's mostly why I don't mod much anymore. It was turning into to much of a competition, which wasn't a good enough reason for me. If I mod again, it will be because I want to see something awesome and inspirational play out in the game world. Like Romans legions defending against barbarians. Or pirates on the high seas.

What I'm *****ing about is the way idiots (usually players who feel entitled to the polished games that big game companies put out) try to discourage new people who have these dreams, but not the skills to back it up. 

What's the price for a modder in this competition? Gratitude of players. Every "thank you" or "you did a great job" is just pure gold for us, keeps us going and motivates us to work even harder. On the other hand, every kind of disrespect (but not the constructive criticism!) hurts us very much. You just showed that by your post, so don't try to argue about it. If someone is doing something completely selflessly, then he doesn't give a damn about what others think about him or his work.

See above. The times when I was relying solely on people's gratitude were the times I was most sorely disappointed. It sure does feel good. And it helps on to carry on. But personally, it's never the sole or starting motivation.

To illustrate my point: Why aren't you making a viking mod? Or an ancient Egyptian mod? It's because they didn't tickle your fancy, or inspire you the same way that Winged Hussars do. Sure, it's obviously changed for you now. Now that you've gotten into it and found it's possible, you want your mod to beat and be better than all the other ones. (Incidentally, good luck beating PoP. Or TLD. They have a ridiculous amount of manpower. But even they didn't start out with the goal to make the most popular mod. They started because they had some inspiration.)

 

[Sayd Ûthman]

Well, i agree with OP on some points. but personally, the reason that makes me want to mod my game is not the popularity or competition. i do it for my own satisfaction, because the period is interesting to my eyes, and because the area is too. it doesn't matter at the end how much will play as long as i'm happy with it. also i noticed i tend to do "original" things, because diversity can only be better for the players

 

[SonKidd]

Well actually, the OP didn't really start with "philosophy", but instead modding structures and methods. While Llew, Dunde an Sayd are moving the conversation from "methods" to "philosophy". Imo, this is the most important thing - mods can be successful in a big/small team (TLD vs. can't think an example since I play too litte; but I'm sure there are), made up of a lot of OSP (Floris... I know! I Know! Floris added tonnes of individual/new stuff and can be hardly fit into OP's category 3, but I'm just using it as an example of a OSP based mod), or even a single team (Blood&Steal if I haven't mistaken and Llew's).

What determines the success of the module is the philosophy behind it - and how solid is it/ how much the person really believes in it. Say Dunde's philosophy is satisfying his curiosity - which has done him well; Llew's was inspiration/ creation of something awesome; Sayd's is his own satisfaction; while I'm sure there are people who are motivated by competition, and that drive will bring them success. With the correct motivation based on strong beliefs, anyone/any team can create a successful mod - great example: Alex Dragon - at first, when that guy appeared on the forum asking really basic questions, showing great immaturity, and being slightly annoying, he fell into what a lot of people (at least me) think will make him fail - working in a single-person team with no experience, always asking for help instead of trying, and inability to read the forums . But he did it, he released a translated mod with great success. That was because his motivation/passion was strong enough to overcome these potential obstacles, because he had the fundamental philosophy beneath his methods was strong. (In the end, his immaturity did lead to his downfall, but that's another story.)

For me, though I have yet to release a mod, I have been working in a two-person team for quite a while (in progress: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=190436) , my motivation/philosophy is really like Sayd - to create something I enjoy playing, and maybe a bit of creating awesome, original materials into the game; the best thing of the motivation is that there is no failure . Even if I realize the mod and only get 1 download, it doesn't matter, because actually me and my friend/team member has been spending more time enjoying the mod than making it; and the product, so fun and enjoy to ourselves, has been more than worthwhile of the effort (and given the amount we enjoyed it, I'm kind of think other people will enjoy it too). The point for me of not releasing a beta or anything along the way is to keep our motivation pure - for ourselves - and instead of working under any pressure/ expectations, so we can builds things block by block of we what we envision and what we enjoy, under our own time frame.

 

[thick1988]

The OSP mod I came up with was basically because I wanted to add things to the game that were not there already so that I could play them myself. But I then decided to make it available to download so that others could enjoy it or take from it and use it for themselves. I never intended to match or compete with a big grand mod like 1257 or cRPG. I just wanted to make a contribution, however small.

 

[Ruthven]

Naw you guys are looking at it the wrong way. This should all be ordered chronologically. Assuming you don't have any past experience (or very little) with programming/3d modelling/texturing etc, you start with text file tweaks, then you add OSPs, then some other **** happens and blam, many years later you're pulling your brain through your ears trying to figure out how to turn the whole damn game over and make it do things it wasn't built to do.

SonKidd definitely knows what's going on, at least.

 

[Ikaguia]

to me it was like:
1- try to make a super ultra mega mod and fail miserably
2- try to make another one and fail again
3- make OSP's
4- make a mod with all those OSP's
5- try to make another mod

 

[Swyter]

Everyone of you has a bit of truth.
Personally I think that everything ends being creativity, willpower and patience.

We all have our very own reasons. But if you're here, reading this right now, is because you have that little something inside that incites you to learn to do it better: Improve, add, discover and share.

We're the source of a good part of the videogame industry(take a look to game studios job's requisites).
Not always innovating but creating stuff without fear, only for the sake of glory, commitment and self-satisfaction.
It's all about pushing the limits.


And, with all that. Our hobby is still very underrated in the mainstream culture.
When I talk with 'normal' people about it they think in mappers and... ripping models, hacking*. Or even... Minecraft? C'mon are you serious?

_________________________
* A hosting company even banned us because modding was classified as illegal. WTH?
And it was only the original version of the Command Database.